My civs tier list for Deity Single Player.

[vadalaz]

Portugal:
You got me curious about trying to see if a Nau-spam strategy can work with Portugal, will roll a random portugal game in the next period. Until then, I would love to see you in a game with Portugal, applying your knowledge and strategy with them, since they are one of your favourite civs. Or what would happen in a strategy with Mobilization (autocracy)+Big Ben+Mercantilism? Can you buy Naus for an amount of gold and then recover the gold, buying them for free, in a way, and then just throwing them into wars? Maintenance could become a problem in that case even if the supply limit would only limit production. What do you think about this idea?

In theory:

Trireme is 45 hammers, upgrades to Nau for 160 gold. Nau itself is 120 hammers.
In the best case scenario I believe Nau gives you ~330 gold when you sell goods.

Let's ignore maintenance costs for a second. If you upgrade from Triremes you're converting 45 hammers into 160-170 gold, roughly 1:4 conversion rate. If you hard-build Naus, you get a 1:2.75 conversion rate.

Default prices for Renaissance buildings and units are close to 4 times their hammer cost: Frigate 185h and 770g, Privateer 150 and 650, Musketman 150 and 540, Bank/Observatory 200 and 780. Realistically you won't get to buy a whole lot of Renaissance stuff with Nau money though, as moving them to the right spot takes quite a bit of time, and you'll be spending a lot of gold to upgrade triremes. However, if you're in Renaissance but don't have Astronomy yet, building Triremes is about as effective as building any Renaissance building or unit, since gold-hammer conversion rates are very close and get better as the game progresses.

Industrial prices are closer to 3x the hammer cost: Public School 300h and 920g, Factory 360 and 1050, Gatling/Rifle 225 and 740. So upgrading Triremes is effective for amassing gold for Industrial buildings and units. An obvious use for this is to get 3150 gold for three factories: that's 19-20 triremes, 855-900 hammers, normally you'd spend 1080 on three factories. You also get a fleet of 20 Naus.

It gets a lot better with Mercantilism. Factories now cost 790 gold, gold-to-hammers ratio 2.2:1. So if you have Mercantilism, hard-building Naus in Renaissance becomes very viable. Big Ben improves the situation as well.

Then things change at ideologies. With Mobilization, Big Ben and Mercantilism, Naus cost 240 gold, so you can just start mass-buying them for profit at this point. Skyscrapers is another great option if you go Order.

Obviously gold can also be spent on things like CS gifts, tile purchases, RAs etc. There's also the fact that gold is flexible - you can spend it in any city, so the Trireme/Nau spam in your best cities can help the weaker ones catch up. And your huge fleet can actually do quite a bit of damage, or at least be intimidating enough for the AIs to give you good peace deals. Maybe you can even tribute CSs if you bring enough ships.

Of course, you'd want several coastal cities for this to work really well, and that's not always an option on Pangaea and even Continents. Those maps are often ice-blocked as well, so getting Naus to the best spot can be a pain or even impossible. There's also the issue of unit supply limit and maintenance costs.

 

[cocls]

a lot of debate here lol. I don't think its possible to make an objective tier list in this game, as everyone has different goals, playstyles and skill level.
caesarfox create very great detailed analysis of each civs in the game and make a lot of video to support his analysis, but his analysis only work for standard speed and size, with high skill level.
for example, Venice is a good civilization if one only consider "easy to use", but if one is skillful enough and start to consider winning the game effeciently, Venice becomes a very bad civ.

@Tiberiu I don't understand why you say it's not hard to found a religious on deity level. you need at least 220-240 faith to found a religion.
Suppose you found one on around 70T (which is the latest safe time if one want to ensure a religion), and start to generate faith at 20T, you will need at least 5 faith per turn.
I don't think its possible on a map without faith resources, even if you build 4 shrine immediately after found 4 cities, you still can not have enough faith.

 

[beetle]

@Tiberiu I don't understand why you say it's not hard to found a religious on deity level.

Because @cocls, it turns out, founding a religion in Civ5 Deity is actually pretty easy! Please try it for three or four games in a row, and report back your experience to this thread. My very reliable script is:

1. some faith dirt (and almost any start will do)
2. research Pottery first
3. build a Shrine asap
4. pick a faith-oriented pantheon that matches dirt

The player has until about ~T80 to found. Founding the last religion is so much better than not founding a religion at all. The very worse results still gets the player gold, unlocks CS quests, and happy or food.

Hardly any RNG really. Not 100%, but prolly 80%, maybe higher.

 

[Nizef]

About founding a religion:
I agree with @Tiberiu about his list above. Sometimes I, just to prove a point, try to get a religion without any faith from the starting land. By taking two points in Piety you will get 2 faith x 4 cities, which "usually" is good enough to get fourth or fifth religion. Whether it is worth it for the development of the entire game is of course doubtful. My standard build order, when I want a religion, is Scoutx2, Shrine and only then something else.

 

[cocls]

@beetle @Nizef @Tiberiu

I really don't think religion is so important in BNW, for example, if I my neighbour have a strong pagodas religion, even if I have a Prompet, I will definitely abandon religion and build a holy site instead.
founding a religion without good happiness belief is always much worse than adopt a pagodas religion.

I have won a lot of sub-210T SV on deity level without founding a religion, my Russian game is one example, you can watch the videos.
I really don't think its possible to win a fast SV if you pick Piety first and delay your Collective Rule or Tradition finisher.

Religion is simply not that important in BNW. Founder's believes are not very powerful in BNW. The most important benefit from founding a religion is that you can adopt the best follower believes you want.
but if you cannot get a good belief, adopt other's religion is better than founding your own.

 

[Nizef]

@beetle @Nizef @Tiberiu

I really don't think religion is so important in BNW, for example, if I my neighbour have a strong pagodas religion, even if I have a Prompet, I will definitely abandon religion and build a holy site instead.
founding a religion without good happiness belief is always much worse than adopt a pagodas religion.

I have won a lot of sub-210T SV on deity level without founding a religion, my Russian game is one example, you can watch the videos.
I really don't think its possible to win a fast SV if you pick Piety first and delay your Collective Rule or Tradition finisher.

Religion is simply not that important in BNW. Founder's believes are not very powerful in BNW. The most important benefit from founding a religion is that you can adopt the best follower believes you want.
but if you cannot get a good belief, adopt other's religion is better than founding your own.

I definitely agree that founding a religion isn´t that important for fast victories. However, it opens up a new dimension of the game and in my opinoin, it makes the game more interesting. Piety is not the optimal way to go about "any" game. However, once again it adds depth to the experience and it will challenge you in a slightly different manner.

 

[beetle]

IMHO, asserting that “[X] is not so important” is kind of silly. If someone observed that the spying mechanic is not critical to a fast win time, you would probably agree. You would also be correct to ask: So what? What is your point?

@beetle @Nizef @Tiberiu I really don't think religion is so important in BNW….

That is an entirely different assertion! So, do you agree that getting a religion is not hard?

 

[cocls]

IMHO, asserting that “[X] is not so important” is kind of silly. If someone observed that the spying mechanic is not critical to a fast win time, you would probably agree. You would also be correct to ask: So what? What is your point?That is an entirely different assertion! So, do you agree that getting a religion is not hard?

maybe you misunderstand my point, both religion and spying mechanic are important to a fast win.
my point is that you don't need to find your own religion to enjoy benifit from the religion mechanic, in 60%-70% of game, adpot other's religion is better than founding your own.
I don't think invest too much just to found a religion is a good idea.

 

[beetle]

One step at time please @cocls — do you agree that founding is not hard?

 

[cocls]

One step at time please @cocls — do you agree that founding is not hard?

Hmm... the goal of this game is to achieve victory, not founding a religion, if in many situations, the cost of founding a religion is unacceptably high so that founding a religion is preventing
instead of helping you towards victory, I will say that founding a religion is hard in that situation.

 

[Mizzenmast]

Here are my thoughts… The AI is likely to get a fast religion if they get a Faith pantheon, take Piety, or roll as one of the Faith civs. (Or build Hagia Sophia.) It takes 5 of these in the game to make all the religions go early, and this is a minority of games. So yes @beetle, usually it is well within the player’s reach to get at least the 5th religion, in other words, founding is not hard. But it’s all about getting the best beliefs (Faith buildings, with Pagodas almost twice as good as Mosques/Cathedrals), which the AIs prioritize too. And founding an early religion on Deity is hard outside of a strong Faith start. Usually you need some luck and investment in Piety, which has considerable opportunity cost, to turn an average start into a fast religion. That’s why the Faith civs are so strong to play on Deity. They can stack their bonuses with standard religion-oriented play (lots of cities out early, building Shrines first), ignore Piety, and reliably get the 1st -3rd religion, guaranteeing one of the happiness buildings, sometimes enhancing quickly enough to grab a 2nd. They don't even have to take a middling Faith pantheon (e.g. One with Nature on a single Wonder) to get the engine going, they can take something much better like Goddess of Love.

@cocls is correct that there are situations like he describes where taking the Holy Site is more efficient than founding a late religion – especially if you are chasing a fast Science win. But personally (and I enjoy longer games), I will almost always found a late religion if it’s available, to leave the door open for the WR resolution late-game, Grand Temple, and CS possibilities. In these cases I always take the Hermitage bonus, and just keep the religion in my capital. I don’t enhance unless the 15% production is still available, but that one is more popular with the AIs. Subsequent Prophets are used for Holy Sites, fulfilling CS quests, or rarely, keeping a backup copy of my religion if my Holy City seems like it could fall to passive pressure. Sometimes I will take God-King with this plan in mind if many pantheons or early religions are already taken.

Speaking of, I think the single most important factor that influences Deity approach to religion is the impact of your Pantheon. The situationally OP pantheons (mainly Desert Folklore and Sacred Path, sometimes Sun God, Goddess of the Hunt, God of the Sea, or Dance of the Aurora) combined with Tithe make locking down your own religion through a network of pressure a more rewarding option. Otherwise I rarely care if the AI convert my cities once I get my faith buildings, if I get them. It's all highly situational... I suspect that any map that can be won with founding a religion, can be won without it by the same VC.

Finally, you're worse off not founding religion on the lower difficulties (but this is actually hard to do), since the AIs are not as empowered to spread their own religions to you. You want to get something rather than nothing. On Deity, your cities are nearly guaranteed to adopt someone's religion by the midgame... either through passive pressure, or because you sold Open Borders to the religious civs with nice beliefs.

 

[beetle]

One step at time please @cocls — do you agree that founding is not hard?

Hmm... the goal of this game is to achieve victory, not founding a religion, if in many situations, the cost of founding a religion is unacceptably high so that founding a religion is preventing
instead of helping you towards victory, I will say that founding a religion is hard in that situation.

I am feeling like you keep moving the goalposts.

But it’s all about getting the best beliefs…

I respectfully disagree because even without a faith building, founding unlocks options the player does not have otherwise.

…Faith buildings, with Pagodas almost twice as good as Mosques/Cathedrals…

FWIW, nowadays, I almost always take Mosques over Pagodas when both are available.