My ideas for this game

[Virdrago]

Sorry for replying to this old thread, but it seems that bumping is fashionable in Rhye's forum, and I like darkedone02's suggestion a lot.

Basically, I'd love to see the tech tree extended further back in the stone age. This is roughly how it could be done: we start without settlers in the "nomadic hunter-gatherers" age with something like the Mongol camp from the Genghis Khan scenario. We can settle down only when we acquire a specific tech that allows the production of settlers. After settling down, we take control of the appropriate civilization depending on time and location. For instance we cannot settle down as Mongolia before the late twelfth century. How does this sound? How difficult would that be to implement?

If we did that, the "hunter-gatherers" of the proto-Dutch and proto-Turks would be killed off while they wander the high density areas of the urban world, trying to colonize their historical area. Or, if you take over the appropriate civ's spawn area, you may never be able to play as the Dutch or the Portuguese, since you would never get there - never mind England or Japan (boats are too primitive).

 

[Carolingian]

If we did that, the "hunter-gatherers" of the proto-Dutch and proto-Turks would be killed off while they wander the high density areas of the urban world, trying to colonize their historical area. Or, if you take over the appropriate civ's spawn area, you may never be able to play as the Dutch or the Portuguese, since you would never get there - never mind England or Japan (boats are too primitive).

Good point. But what I have in mind is a little different from what you have described. Civilizations spawn as they normally would, even if the wandering player doesn't colonize the area. The idea is that you play, not as the Proto-Turks or the proto-Dutch, but as a generic nomadic civilization, until you decide to settle down. It's a bit like switching control of civs in mid-game: even if you decide not to take control of America, they spawn anyway, don't they? Which civ you become when you settle down will depend on the time and the location. (Incidentally, at some point nomads should be able to produce boats and cross the sea). After a certain date, when all the slots have been taken, you will no longer be able to settle. There should be an UHV for the nomadic civ. Its primary condition could be: survive until the end game without ever settling.

 

[Úmarth]

What if I settled in central Africa? Or Mongolia in 300BC?

 

[Churchill's Hat]

To Carolingian: Okay, I see that I did imply that you wanted Rhye to do it. But who will do it? It seems to me your post implies that you won't be doing it, so who will? Darkedone hasn't revisited this forum in forever, and Rhye hasn't released the code for modding AFAIK and said he won't do it. Personally, I think this should close the thread.

Also, RFC is a historical simulation. Making new civs every time is just...odd. If you want that, then play an Earth map with random starts, there are plenty out there. But it won't happen to RFC.

EDIT: to Umarth: I meant that Rhye won't use darkedone's suggestion, not that he won't release the code.

 

[Úmarth]

Darkedone hasn't revisited this forum in forever, and Rhye hasn't released the code for modding AFAIK and said he won't do it.

I'm pretty sure if you asked he'd give it to you

 

[onedreamer]

Carolingian: I did discuss your proposal, extending the mod before 3000 BC is out of its scope. And btw, it's even beyond the scope of the game itself.

 

[onedreamer]

OT: I want to post this not to PM only because I don't want people to think that italians hate nomads.

Uh-uh. Now it's getting even worse. You're basically implying that nomads are the same as thieves. You know, this is the same sort of generalization made by those who have recently burnt to ground the gipsy camps near Naples.

I must really suck at english, what I meant to say is that what are disliked in Italy aren't people who don't live in a house, but people that go around stealing in others' houses; and I am pretty sure this feeling is shared everywhere on Earth. You generalized calling them all "nomads" while I made a precise dinstinction between nomads and thieves.
The camp near Naples wasn't burned by xenophobists as you think but my Mafia which had interest in kicking them off and exploited a series of events at the right moment.

I never said you were fascist, not even "subtly". In fact, I did not mention the word "fascist" at all. You remind me of that ancient Roman motto: excusatio non petita accusatio manifesta. Unasked apology, evident self-accusation.

You clearly implied I may consider nomadic human beings the same as animals and that it may be because I am italian. Since this sort of xenophobic philosophy in Italy is fascist, you hence implied I am fascist. Also, I did not apology for anything, but you probably should.

 

[Carolingian]

What if I settled in central Africa? Or Mongolia in 300BC?

If you settle at the wrong place or the wrong time, outside historically civilized areas (=spawn areas), the simplest solution is that you found a normal city, but this becomes independent and you immediately lose control of it. Alternative options to consider are as follows:

Option 2) You found a normal city and retain it. This is similar to a barbarian city. It can't be your capital (nomads can't have palaces) and it has a very high chance of flipping to neighboring civs, or even to independents. Every time you found a normal city and retain it despite being a nomadic civ, you also suffer a stability hit.

Option 3) You found a nerfed version of a normal city, a "nomadic settlement", and retain it. Same as above, plus such settlements are not permanent. That is, they’re prone to spontaneously disappear after a while if certain conditions are not met, such as stability being above a certain threshold.

Option 4) You only build a fort-style improvement. This could be better than a normal fort. For example it may allow you to produce some units. But it cannot have buildings in it. This improvement should be unique to the nomadic civ. If it falls in somebody else's hands, it will convert to a normal fort.

Making new civs every time is just...odd. If you want that, then play an Earth map with random starts, there are plenty out there.

I did not suggest that players should be allowed to make new civs every time they want. And my suggestion has nothing to do with random starts

 

[Otto I]

You generalized calling them all "nomads" while I made a precise dinstinction between nomads and thieves.

So basically what you are now saying is that "nomads" is too general a name, because we must distinguish more "precisely" between honest people and thieves. But of course your "precise distinction" is by no means unique no nomads. It equally applies to all human beings (any claim to the contrary would be racist). So what exactly is your point then?

The camp near Naples wasn't burned by xenophobists as you think but my Mafia which had interest in kicking them off and exploited a series of events at the right moment.

Actually it was the Camorra, not the Mafia (these are not the same). That’s right, the gipsy camps were burned by xenophobes who were probably instigated by local Camorra bosses. But the fact that the Camorra may be behind the aggression against the Roma doesn’t make it any less xenophobic.

You clearly implied I may consider nomadic human beings the same as animals and that it may be because I am italian. Since this sort of xenophobic philosophy in Italy is fascist, you hence implied I am fascist.

This convoluted syllogism is completely of your own doing. I was not thinking of fascism at all. I was only referring to the recent wave of xenophobic aggressions targeting Roma gypsies who live in Italy. (And before you jump to hasty conclusions: no, I am not implying that you must be among those who have burnt the Roma camps).

Also, I did not apology for anything, but you probably

I owe you an apology? For what? Just to clarify, excusatio in the Latin motto I cited earlier is only loosely translated as apology. In that context, it really means something like unnecessary self-justification. You did not need to say "I am not a fascist" because nobody ever claimed you were.

OT: I want to post this not to PM only because I don't want people to think that italians hate nomads.

Once again, I never said nor implied that all Italians hate nomads. Italian has a nice phrase to describe this kinds of overreactions: tail of straw, coda di paglia.

 

[Úmarth]

If you settle at the wrong place or the wrong time, outside historically civilized areas (=spawn areas), the simplest solution is that you found a normal city, but this becomes independent and you immediately lose control of it. Alternative options to consider are as follows:

Option 2) You found a normal city and retain it. This is similar to a barbarian city. It can't be your capital (nomads can't have palaces) and it has a very high chance of flipping to neighboring civs, or even to independents. Every time you found a normal city and retain it despite being a nomadic civ, you also suffer a stability hit.

Option 3) You found a nerfed version of a normal city, a "nomadic settlement", and retain it. Same as above, plus such settlements are not permanent. That is, they’re prone to spontaneously disappear after a while if certain conditions are not met, such as stability being above a certain threshold.

Option 4) You only build a fort-style improvement. This could be better than a normal fort. For example it may allow you to produce some units. But it cannot have buildings in it. This improvement should be unique to the nomadic civ. If it falls in somebody else's hands, it will convert to a normal fort.



I did not suggest that players should be allowed to make new civs every time they want. And my suggestion has nothing to do with random starts

Alright I actually do think this is quite interesting now, however what you're saying would radically alter RFC... its probably better off as a standalone mod in itself.

 

[Sandry]

Greetings to everybody. I read this group for a long time since I became a great admirer of Rhye's mod. I never write messages because written english is difficult for me but for this time I cannot resist because I do not want people to think that every italian is ignorant about our racist problem. Probably Onedreamer does not explain very well the problem beacuse we italians suck at english (as you can see I suck also! ) But let me try. Unfortunately there is a lot of propaganda in Italy and consequently many people think that this equation is true: rom = thieves. I do not know if Onedreamer was influenced by the propaganda or if it was not what he wanted to say. But the situation in Italy is very very bad. Worse than fascism! Mussolini did not have 6 television channels and many newspapers to do propaganda every day to attack the roms and the immigrants.

 

[dionysos2048]

^ Sounds like France... Sarkoberlusconism is on the rise...

 

[RedRalph]

Greetings to everybody. I read this group for a long time since I became a great admirer of Rhye's mod. I never write messages because written english is difficult for me but for this time I cannot resist because I do not want people to think that every italian is ignorant about our racist problem. Probably Onedreamer does not explain very well the problem beacuse we italians suck at english (as you can see I suck also! ) But let me try. Unfortunately there is a lot of propaganda in Italy and consequently many people think that this equation is true: rom = thieves. I do not know if Onedreamer was influenced by the propaganda or if it was not what he wanted to say. But the situation in Italy is very very bad. Worse than fascism! Mussolini did not have 6 television channels and many newspapers to do propaganda every day to attack the roms and the immigrants.

dont worry, everybody knows some Italians are racist, some not, most not in fact. Same with everyone, Irish, German, Russia, Greek, etc etc. and don worry about your English, its a hell of a lot better than my Italian

 

[onedreamer]

So basically what you are now saying is that "nomads" is too general a name, because we must distinguish more "precisely" between honest people and thieves. But of course your "precise distinction" is by no means unique no nomads. It equally applies to all human beings (any claim to the contrary would be racist). So what exactly is your point then?

You have serious difficulty reading english: as I have already written, my point is that italians, like anyone in the world, dislike thieves, and not nomads. The fact that some nomads are thieves doesn't mean that italians are racist.

Actually it was the Camorra, not the Mafia (these are not the same). That’s right, the gipsy camps were burned by xenophobes who were probably instigated by local Camorra bosses. But the fact that the Camorra may be behind the aggression against the Roma doesn’t make it any less xenophobic.

Again you have serious problems with english. Mafia in english is a general term to describe organized crime like Camorra.
And you have absolutely NO CLUE of what happened in that camp, so please don't come here to spit sentences. You are just one more victim of our modern mass disinformation.

I was only referring to the recent wave of xenophobic aggressions targeting Roma gypsies who live in Italy.

what wave ?

I owe you an apology? For what? Just to clarify, excusatio in the Latin motto I cited earlier is only loosely translated as apology. In that context, it really means something like unnecessary self-justification. You did not need to say "I am not a fascist" because nobody ever claimed you were.

Fine, in the same way I didn't self-justify anything, heh.

Once again, I never said nor implied that all Italians hate nomads. Italian has a nice phrase to describe this kinds of overreactions: tail of straw, coda di paglia.

Once again you are making subtle implications...

 

[onedreamer]

Unfortunately there is a lot of propaganda in Italy and consequently many people think that this equation is true: rom = thieves. I do not know if Onedreamer was influenced by the propaganda or if it was not what he wanted to say.

I do not trust mass media so I am definitely not a victim of propaganda. I am an objective person and I know that gypsies have been hated and persecuted since forever, it's certainly no news or propaganda from Berlusconi. All they (Italy's right wing) do is feed these feelings do distract people from the real problems that afflict the country. Also I grew up near gypsy camps and I know how they live and how they think. They live the day, some of them are thieves, not the kind that robs a bank but the kind that steals your wallet on the bus, for them it is art and life-style. If you catch them they may even give it back and without pulling out a knife (unlike your random thief). Hence before any bigot hypocritical brainwashed "goodthinking" poster may think to accuse me to be racist, just know that IMHO, that person who just stole a wallet on the bus is a thief indipendently from the nationality or life-style. If that person also happen to be a gypsy is almost irrilevant, the only relevance it makes is that random gypsies can be found easily in order to provoke a retaliation, random thieves not. And that's how ignorant people get pushed (paid might be more precise) into burning down a gypsy camp. However this does not give the right to the average bigot hypocritical brainwashed "goodthinking" poster to come here and write that "Nomads are not held in high esteem in Italy" and that I might think even worse of them. I wonder how high in esteem are held nomads in Bigotland.

 

[sdLeo]

ok, since this wave of bumping threads, with all the b****ing and yapping, i have been quiet all along but i can't hold it in any longer...

Dabur: i don't EVER wanna see you start a post with "hmmmmm" again, okay!! (i know, he's not even on this thread...)

 

[Dabur]

ok, since this wave of bumping threads, with all the b****ing and yapping, i have been quiet all along but i can't hold it in any longer...

Dabur: i don't EVER wanna see you start a post with "hmmmmm" again, okay!! (i know, he's not even on this thread...)

hi ,

you have a problem with a five day lapse , ....


and btw , if you dont want to see again , just close your eyes , ..

Have a nice day

 

[sdLeo]

hi ,

you have a problem with a five day lapse , ....


and btw , if you dont want to see again , just close your eyes , ..

Have a nice day

lol... *sigh* i have nothing against you bud... it was just the hmmmmmmmm... what does it meeeaaannn?

... ok, so i tried closing my eyes... i see you going hmmmm...

 

[kbk]

I find this discussion an interesting cultural one. I suspect a bit of language barrier being at the root here.

In English, nomad has no negative connotation. When someone says "nomad" the connotation means early civilizations or tribes (or whatever term you prefer) who migrate and have not settled into a city. In other words, hunter and gather societies without a permanent basis.

I have never heard anyone refer to gypsies as nomads in English. There are many other bigoted words however, which I will not list here.

Oh and for the record: Precivilized civilization to me would be interesting, but a contradiction in terms of the game. I have no interest in seeing it added into this mod.

 

[onedreamer]

kbk, it's exactly the same in Italy. Otto called gypsies "nomads" because he had to infer at all costs that I am a racist or who knows what. Note that gypsies aren't even much nomads, more homeless. Also, gypsies have always been called as such ("zingari") where I live but in the last years the mass media call them "Rom" and consequently common people do the same. I really dislike this since this term is dangerously similar to the adj. for ppl from Romania, which incidentally immigrated in hundreds of thousands in the last years in Italy, causing not few cultural problems as it is obvious when 2 different cultures come in so close contact. Consider that gypsies also have similar features to slavs, at least they do at the eyes of the average italian, and you get dangerous generalizations ready to feed to common people, and Mass Media are the masters or generalization and disinformation.