My solution to civ switching.

[Crashdummy]

doing both at the same time is the big mistake, it will alienate switching to the player's base for generations, which is sad, because I'm still convinced there are implementations of civ-switching that can work. HK with geographic unlocking was the best version of a modded civ game I played since civ4.

I dont know if t here is any implementation that can work. Up to this point, every implementation i played felt bad

I also feel like the benefits that civ switching can bring dont seem to be worth the amount of games its screwing up. I hope Firaxis stop trying to make it work with Civilization and maybe other games i care less about try it untill they make it work

 

[King Flevance]

I dont know if t here is any implementation that can work. Up to this point, every implementation i played felt bad

I also feel like the benefits that civ switching can bring dont seem to be worth the amount of games its screwing up. I hope Firaxis stop trying to make it work with Civilization and maybe other games i care less about try it untill they make it work

What other implementations are there other than Humankind and Civ 7?

 

[Skojardu]

My personal thought was that maybe the solution was already in colonization, where you have a continental congress that you add to. Having a cabinet of "Great People" that you add to (without replacing your leader) adding their cultural distinctiveness to your own could be a characterful way to do it, albeit with some tension between how you distinguish them from your Civ's leader...

I see someone else likes Colonization <3

 

[Leucarum]

I see someone else likes Colonization <3

I mean... When taken out of context that sounds really bad but the game was great!

 

[Crashdummy]

What other implementations are there other than Humankind and Civ 7?

I only know those two, both failed

I dont want Firaxis to keep failing in search of the unicorn that would be the implementation that works

 

[Gedemon]

I only know those two, both failed

I dont want Firaxis to keep failing in search of the unicorn that would be the implementation that works

if HK as failed, which I disagree, what to say of Millennia or Ara, which don't have civ switching?

 

[Crashdummy]

if HK as failed, which I disagree, what to say of Millennia or Ara, which don't have civ switching?

I never said not doing age transitions and civ switching is guaranteed to be a success. All i said is that the games that implemented those, failed

Those are two different things

 

[Gedemon]

they only fail compared to previous versions of civs, they are more successful compared to all other civ-like games.

 

[Lazy sweeper]

"Civilizations" as we know them in civ 7 are replaced with "cultures".

This was revealed to me in a dream, so may have flaws I've overlooked.
Thoughts?

The Dragons appeared in your dream???
I'm just curious...

 

[AD1730]

they only fail compared to previous versions of civs, they are more successful compared to all other civ-like games.

Ok, and? Sorry, but Civ has a significant name-recognition advantage over its competitors. Civ 7 is currently a failure relative to its predecessors, which is the comparison that the corporate executives and shareholders will care about far more.

 

[Leucarum]

Milennia wasn't a flop?

Does Ara have Civ switching? The economic system definitely isn't my cup of tea so I haven't paid much attention.

I guess fail is a relative term, given that it was marketed as a civ killer, I don't think we can say HK hit all its goals, but it clearly found a floor where it was somewhat sustainable.

 

[Gedemon]

I guess fail is a relative term, given that it was marketed as a civ killer, I don't think we can say HK hit all its goals, but it clearly found a floor where it was somewhat sustainable.

HK was never marketed as a civ killer, that's a result of influencers usual click-bait behaviour, denounced by Amplitude.

Ok, and? Sorry, but Civ has a significant name-recognition advantage over its competitors. Civ 7 is currently a failure relative to its predecessors, which is the comparison that the corporate executives and shareholders will care about far more.

agree, but not my point at all.

 

[Leucarum]

HK was never marketed as a civ killer, that's a result of influencers usual click-bait behaviour, denounced by Amplitude.

It seemed like a pretty ubiquitous tag line in reviews from major outlets too... I'd always assumed amplitude were setting their sights pretty high.

In hindsight was less frustrated by Civ switching in HK than I am in Civ7 but it might have been because the battle mini-games in amplitude games annoy me more and are far more fundamental to the experience. There's a whole X in the 4X that I just don't want to engage with with their games.

 

[ehecatzin]

Man it rubs the wrong way every time HK is brought up as some sort of boogey man, and "should you even think of doing a similar idea to that game is the END THE END!".
The implementation and pacing was the problem not the idea, HK early to mid game is fire, it's *gasp* fun. The problem came with other issues like too many eras, too fast civ switching, and honestly **** balance that was never adressed (and made the game unbearable past the mid point, way more that anything Firaxis did in civ VII)

Civ is doing civ switching way better, they just have to get the pacing right, and If we are honest most of the problems the game has right now are Firaxis own doing, not some curse brought up by HK. (just to mention one, taking you out of the game between ages because the game is segmented into 3 mini games)

 

[Leucarum]

Man it rubs the wrong way every time HK is brought up as some sort of boogey man, and "should you even think of doing a similar idea to that game is the END THE END!".
The implementation and pacing was the problem not the idea, HK early to mid game is fire, it's *gasp* fun. The problem came with other issues like too many eras, too fast civ switching, and honestly **** balance that was never adressed (and made the game unbearable past the mid point, way more that anything Firaxis did in civ VII)

Civ is doing civ switching way better, they just have to get the pacing right, and If we are honest most of the problems the game has right now are Firaxis own doing, not some curse brought up by HK. (just to mention one, taking you out of the game between ages because the game is segmented into 3 mini games)

Humankind is an useful point of reference though, as it's the most directly comparable game which is doing something similar. I remember the review I left for Humankind was basically that it was full of great ideas that someone else would implement better.

And while Civ7 did improve on Humankind's model for Civ switching, I do think they made a bunch of new errors in the process (unlock paths, more jarring transitions, underestimating civ numbers needed while overestimating how much ageless features would add to replayability, terrain-bias civs in later ages). They also didn't fix the "identity crisis" problem that they share with Humankind, though they ameliorated it a little.

Honestly, I think Paradox might have the best model for civ switching out there. Non-synchronous, driven by gameplay events, either challenging to set up or offering interesting tradeoffs, completely optional... Albeit not something you can make a central gameplay pillar from easily. If there'a a future for the mechanic I think that's the franchise(s) to look at.

 

[Crashdummy]

they only fail compared to previous versions of civs, they are more successful compared to all other civ-like games.

Really? Of course it will need to be compared with jprevious Civs, since there arent any other civ like game with the level of production that Civ games like, nor any of them has the level of recognition that Civilization has

And its clearly a failure since the difference is not close, its HUGE

I want to ask a question to the ones that think ages and civ switching arent a problem, what is in your opinion the reason why Civ 7 has such low numbers compared to any other Civ game in history except for Beyond Earth?

 

[ehecatzin]

I want to ask a question to the ones that think ages and civ switching arent a problem, what is in your opinion the reason why Civ 7 has such low numbers compared to any other Civ game in history except for Beyond Earth?

Abysmally bad UI and unfinished release. If the UI was good and the game was only rough around the edges I don't think the reaction would have been nearly as bad.

we would have been talking about balance and ideas since release.

 

[Crashdummy]

Abysmally bad UI and unfinished release. If the UI was good and the game was only rough around the edges I don't think the reaction would have been nearly as bad.

we would have been talking about balance and ideas since release.

The UI has improved a lot though, thats what i hear form the videos, yet the numbers dont go up and the new reviews keep being negative

Do you think the UI needs more improving or that the initial reaction is impossible to salvage?

 

[aieeegrunt]

Abysmally bad UI and unfinished release. If the UI was good and the game was only rough around the edges I don't think the reaction would have been nearly as bad.

we would have been talking about balance and ideas since release.

The same was said about 5 and especially 6, but they did not perform anywhere near as bad

 

[Leucarum]

I don't know that I ever found the UI to be as bad as people say it was. The most confusing part was (and still is) telling buildings apart at a glance - but that would need such a big graphical overhaul I don't know if it'll ever happen...

It definitely could have been better (and rapidly got better), but I found the game perfectly playable at launch!

The issues it faces I do think are more in terms of how it feels to play around some of the core mechanics. The core memory I always have was introducing a friend to it in multplayer and his reaction to the first era change was "I want to stop playing now." I've played a lot of Civ7 and enjoyed it, but the devs made some choices which are very divisive. I don't think we can lay all the blame on the UI.