Natives

[marstinson]

In colonization, I´m not too happy about beeing attacked unprovokedly since to me this is supposed to be a game about resources, and what you can do with your resources in order to prevent war in the first place! If you use your resources wiesly and get nice relations with a native tribe - and the tribe still attacks you - then the entire game seems somewhat pointless.

I'd have to disagree. The point of the whole game is to be able to win a war for independence (or to keep the AI from winning a war for independence while you wait for the clock to run out - cheesy, but it is one of the victory conditions). While I'm not happy with Native wars in the early game, I want them in the mid-game. How else am I going to get units that can fight the REF and win?

The REF units come with pretty good bonuses versus settlements and my forces have squat except for a couple of Founding Fathers that one of the other power might get to first. So the alternatives are to get into wars with the other European powers or to get into wars with the Natives, or both. While I won't go out of my way to DoW the Natives (OK, I would if I were Spanish), I kind of hope for a mid-game war for the promos.

 

[Saurus]

I'd have to disagree. The point of the whole game is to be able to win a war for independence (or to keep the AI from winning a war for independence while you wait for the clock to run out - cheesy, but it is one of the victory conditions). While I'm not happy with Native wars in the early game, I want them in the mid-game. How else am I going to get units that can fight the REF and win?

The REF units come with pretty good bonuses versus settlements and my forces have squat except for a couple of Founding Fathers that one of the other power might get to first. So the alternatives are to get into wars with the other European powers or to get into wars with the Natives, or both. While I won't go out of my way to DoW the Natives (OK, I would if I were Spanish), I kind of hope for a mid-game war for the promos.

Your statement regarding experience & promotion is probably 100% correct as that is how the game mechanics works.
However, that was not my point really.

My point was that I don´t want that a native tribe, who is my friend, suddenly just declares a full blown war against me to drive me out to the sea for no reason at all.
That kind of behaeviour just does not make any sence. Since it does not make any sence, it feels stupid to guard yourself against it. It also robs the game of one of its key characteristics that existed in the orginal game - that the natives responed based on your action. Since your actions does not matter, why bother improving relations? That´s quite sad since that was such a huge factor in the orginal game.


Then again, maybe it is just me who have played the orginal col for too many years

 

[sokar]

In two different games at easy level I have had the natives offer me settlements. When I went looking, I could nmot find a settlement by that name and no indication of one that had changed ownership.

Is there a way to go back and read old messages from the natives?

 

[lavos]

I´m also confused about native behaevior. In my last game I was not at bad terms with Logan - then suddenly he attacked me anyway.

It seems to me that when it comes to diplomacy and declaration of war, native settlements are responding more civ-like than col-like (meaning their actions does not nessessarily correlate with relation)
Traditionally, in the orginal col, natives never attacked as long as you did not really do something to anger them somehow.

In colonization, I´m not too happy about beeing attacked unprovokedly since to me this is supposed to be a game about resources, and what you can do with your resources in order to prevent war in the first place!
If you use your resources wiesly and get nice relations with a native tribe - and the tribe still attacks you - then the entire game seems somewhat pointless.

Ah, Logan. I have some very bad experence with that guy. For some odd reason he was my neigbour in three of my games. In all of those games he attacked. Not only that he is the only AI native that ever attacked me. I always traded with him and used his villages to train my colonists, but whenever he had a chance he attacked me. Once I even had to reload and give him some small money to save my skin. He got he got me completely on surprise.

I just hate this guy.

 

[Feannag]

Natives have the same 1-square culture radius even though they don't show on the map. If you hover your mouse over a tile it shows the cultural percentages.

There are also small signs outside that. Usually you will see little huts and tents on the tiles. I played both as French and English and never had a problem with them. But I trade with them and setup missions.

And a fun thing I found out, if you get a convert you can "live with" the village he just came out of to make him a specialist.

 

[brockalee]

Only thing helps ..
MILITARTY - natives ll only attack u if they see a chance of winning - just have some canons in your city and you r save.

I believe this also. And I think that certain natives are more aggressive also. I had my whole colony wiped out due to no military - "Who needs that" I figured..

 

[Terra Nullius]

In two different games at easy level I have had the natives offer me settlements. When I went looking, I could nmot find a settlement by that name and no indication of one that had changed ownership.

Is there a way to go back and read old messages from the natives?

In my experience when you get that message and accept the settlement then they abandon it (hence no name) and give you the land. Sometimes I see a bunch of tents on the abandoned settlement, but you won't be able to use it as a town per se, they just give you the land to use and they bugger off somewhere else.

 

[Gliese 581]

I prefer the col1 way of occasional raiding parties even when at decent terms. The natives didn't necessarilly view small skirmishes as an act of war like the europeans would. With less centralized form of government/philosophy of human relations they would not expect/take on a responsibility for what every young warrior decided to do even though they might be prepared to pay reparations if they viewed the act as wrongfully comitted. Now you would have to put in an option to use such an attack as an opportunity to declare war without angering other colonies (that would have the common european view of any attacks justifying a total war) or perhaps demand reparations or forgive them (relation boost).

 

[Feannag]

Confirmed that crap from earlier. I loaded a prior save and knowing how the Apache leader (Impressionable, Indulgent) would act I spent gold to buy goods they wanted and gave them fair trades peppered with gifts. Even gave them horses and guns. And I even setup missionaries into the two local villages to boot.

It was all for naught, my population was booming so badly from excessive food I had three 12-population colonies by turn 134. I managed to get in 200 guns (with one soldier already made) just before they started the attack. Without cannons or a stockade, they killed the one soldier and four more colonists valiantly took up arms after my dragoon fell. They zerged all three colonies and burned them all to the ground, leaving no one left.

The big killer? "Your way of life is harmful to us." This seems to happen when you pioneer the land in any way (lodge/farm/mine/road) and when you have large population colonies. I think the missionaries may also have a negative impact as well. I mean if more of your people left and converted due to missionaries you'd probably be pissed too right?

For the record this is my first dealings with Apache. Prior games I dealt primarily with Incas, and Arawak and for the most part they were pretty cool. I'm thinking it's a leader personality thing though.

 

[marciv]

I have never had any problems with the natives. Ever. So I'm kind of confused as to why other people are.

What I generally do is I try not to encroach on their turf as best as I can. If it can't be avoided I pay for it (but I also try to make sure only one tile overlaps with them). Then I either trade with them or set up missions. As a result, I always have a healthy amount of manual labor to till the fields, bring in the ore, etc. If I could, I would train them also into veteran soldiers at universities, but that doesnt' seem to be an option this time around.

To keep them on your good side, just periodically gift them horses, arms, or manufactured goods (I imagine story-wise with delivering rum for free, it turns the native settlement into a giant Happy Hour). Overall, you don't bother them too much, they'll reciprocate.

EDIT: However, be aware. One way to anger them by accident (I think this is a bug) is by capturing other European settlements by force. If THEY took the land by force, and you take it from the Europeans, then the natives whose land was stolen will blame YOU for having their land stolen, and your relations will drop accordingly.

With reference to the alleged 'bug' re capturing other European settlements; I don't consider this to be a bug. After all, whoever has the land now, it still once belonged to the natives who presumable still want it back. They would undoubtedly have been annoyed with the freshly ousted previous occupants and have simply shifted their feelings towards you.

 

[KJIOYH]

"Your way of life is harmful to us." happens when you have not used any missionaries on them. I guess missionionaries tell them about europen style and they get more accepting ^^. Natives will get "Your way of life is harmful to us." even if you dont work any land, though it might accelerate it.

 

[Feannag]

"Your way of life is harmful to us." happens when you have not used any missionaries on them. I guess missionionaries tell them about europen style and they get more accepting ^^. Natives will get "Your way of life is harmful to us." even if you dont work any land, though it might accelerate it.

IT doesn't work as well on indulgent and impressionable natives. I had free colonist missionaries in both of my nearby native villages and despite my not working hte land and trade and gifts they still backstabbed me. I think that modifier also has to do with the population size of your colonies.

 

[Hrdina]

"Your way of life is harmful to us." happens when you have not used any missionaries on them. I guess missionionaries tell them about europen style and they get more accepting ^^. Natives will get "Your way of life is harmful to us." even if you dont work any land, though it might accelerate it.

I've gotten that message from the Inca despite having missionaries in more than half of their villages (maybe 10 total). I think it was from buying the land and building a city that overlapped with the land from one of their villages (I needed the hills and iron). They took my 2K gold and were still angry.

 

[Feannag]

Harmful life I think factors in several things.

- How much you have altered the land (lodges, mines, farms, etc.)
- The population of your colonies (when they have 3 per village and you'r pushing 9 - 10 per colony they don't like that.)
- Moving into the land square adjacent to a village (you can see huts and boats around the villages.)
- Cultural borders encroaching on their villages.

Hrdina's post makes me think though, because I have tried through 4 - 5 new games and I was always near the incas. And they never gave me any problems or even hinted at being aggressive. To the point they "Gave" me half their settlements and seemed happy to do so. The only difference with that is I was French and I setup missionaries early. Could the native French benefit on natives be THAT strong though?

 

[KJIOYH]

I am sure are more modifiers. I shouldve been more clear.

I noticed that the lack of missionaries is the most heavy factor for getting "Your way of life is harmful to us.". When i got -1 to -4 for it, i sent a missionary and it got lower instantly. I think 1 missionary lowers it by around 1-2 on conq. difficulty. It is IMHO the most logical cure aswell.
Also, "Your way of life is harmful to us." appears quicker/heaviar if your cultural borders are closer to native villages or their cultural areas. Of course, when your cultural borders grow it raises all kinds of problems with villages, including "Your way of life is harmful to us." and "You stole our land". This is partly proven by the fact that you never get "Your way of life is harmful to us." from natives that are situated on a considerable distance from your empire's borders.


"You stole our land" appears from refusing to pay, capturing cities of different european nations and cultural pops. It cant be cured in any way it seems. If you stole their land, they will attack you no matter what at some point if you dont keep enough army. I had a native nation attack me when i played French, had Defensive pact with them, +1 for peace, +1 or +2 for def. pact, +4 for trade (gave them guns) and had -4 for stealing land. After they attacked and destroyed 1 city the had +2 in relations with me for "having had revenge".

Being French helps really a lot to the point that with any different nation it is only a matter of when to destroy natives.
On the other hand while playing French i dont see any difference at all in their traits, as having really good relations w/o any army and w/o refusing to pay but with cultural pops stealing land is very easy. Besides i want missionaries in asap as french anyway.

Overall - "Your way of life is harmful to us." doesnt completely depend on the % of native villages with missionaries. It also depends on the cultural influences and distance to the colonies.
"You stole our land" means almost inevitable war.
If i play French i go for good relations to the end so i can use them as help against the King. For this reason i trade weapons to offset paying for settling and emphasize religious FF.
As non-french if natives are usefull I use them as much as i can aka trade for their gold trying to sell a low amount of weapons, talk to each village to get all the bonuses, train everyone i need asap and then kill them all for extra gain and safety.
If they are not usefull i kill them much quicker, when i am small and its easiar to defend. Its pretty easy to kill natives if you prepare with leaving some cannons for defence and getting something like 1 soldier +1-2 cannons or dragoons to each of their cities. Otherwise they will destroy all the economy as it is pretty hard to kill them in forests etc.

 

[Feannag]

I am sure are more modifiers. I shouldve been more clear.

I noticed that the lack of missionaries is the most heavy factor for getting "Your way of life is harmful to us.". When i got -1 to -4 for it, i sent a missionary and it got lower instantly. I think 1 missionary lowers it by around 1-2 on conq. difficulty. It is IMHO the most logical cure as well.

Yeah I tried that. I made two free colonists into missionaries and sent them to the two nearby settlements right from the start (knowing what would happen). I traded what they wanted from us (tools, horses, guns) and even gave a number of gifts. I also have zero beel production for expanding cultural borders.

Despite all of that the way-of-life modifier went from -1 to -3 to -6 and then they rolled me. But like I said, I think leader personality has a lot more to do with it. In my case he was Impressionable and Indulgent, which I'm thinking is a pretty bad combo.

 

[KJIOYH]

That very strange. Ill try such a leader right now.

Did you do something special? like steal the land or chop all woods in their territory o.0?

 

[Feannag]

That very strange. Ill try such a leader right now.

Did you do something special? like steal the land or chop all woods in their territory o.0?

I didn't steal any land and I stopped pioneering the land. Relations with that Apache leader just slid downhill constantly without any kind of warning until he got to -6, -7 and then he attacks my settlements. My point was I was doing my best not to trigger anything that would anger that leader, and it didn't seem to work.

 

[KJIOYH]

I just played a game. It wasnt a completely normal setup though :S.

Conq difficulty. Played as French - maybe they matter, gonna try someone esle now. Was living in an islan with two apache villages. Settled first right near to one of their villages and started growing culture and working the land. Had +0.
Settled 3 more cities near the two villages there were. After second city got -1 modifier. Culture pop didnt do anything at all (in all cities). Then moved in 1 missionary and it got back to 0. Moved in second misionary aswell and had people training. Land working didnt change anything throughout the game (played to to like turn 50 till i realised i dont make any gold but only food).
Apaches had 0 relations (cautious) all the time, untill i sold them trade goods for 50 gold which gave +1 for fair lol trade and made them pleased.
They started trying to give me their settlement after turn 14.

My observations:

1) Apache are the most hard natives ive seen. All others are constantly pleased.
2) Land working and culture poping doesnt have big influence.
3) Apache love to sell cheap fur.

Possibly you dont train many people in their villages and they dont get to know you? Or maybe relations with capital matter a lot. Or French are imba.

I am gonna try Dutch now.

 

[KJIOYH]

Had 2 apache vilages nearby and settled aroudn them. Got -1 after 1st village and -2 after culture pop. Many villages didnt matter as they didnt lay in their borders. Got to -1 after 1st missionary.

It is more difficult as Dutch but stil managable if you get a missionary in every village whos borders interfere with yours.

I am observing only the relations modifiers though, i have no guarantee they wouldnt attack me later anyway.

Either you are doing something diffirent or i am totally lost o.0