Naval combat feels really unpleasant to me now.

[ridjack]

I really dislike it.

I've said it before, but it genuinely just feels like an extension of land warfare onto the sea, except with less of everything: less variation of unit types, less(zero) terrain considerations. Every melee ship is a Knight, every ranged ship is a high-movement archer, and we're all fighting on giant open plain. Combined with the AI finally building naval units appropriately (which 100% needed to happen), it's a boring slog. Trying to go about a naval conquest is awful, since since you can't fortify and heal.

I don't have a good idea of what would make this feel better for me while keeping balance in mind, so hopefully smarter people have similar feelings and better ideas.

 

[JamesNinelives]

Sorry to hear it's been so unpleasant for you. I actually enjoy naval combat more now than before because it's actually challenging.

The main annoyance for me has been when I don't have enough iron to actually field a navy, and I'm hoping that the new patch has eased that somewhat .

Also, I do feel that the dynamics of naval combat change significantly through the ages. With low-move naval units in classical naval combat is not particularly easy and there's rarely more than 3 or 4 units involved. Medieval is a bit more mobile but has the interesting contrast of a melee unit that can sail the seas with a ranged unit still limited to coastal waters. Renaissance homogenises things a bit and there's not too much change from there until air units show up, which can make naval combat a bit more unpredicatable. Then submarines and carriers arrive, which is when things are most interesting IMO.

 

[ridjack]

Personally, I rarely see naval combat in any significant amount before Frigates and Corvettes, which, as you noted, is when everything becomes really samey.

I do agree that the introduction of subs makes things significantly more interesting; the only unfortunate thing there is there's such a relatively short amount of the game left at that point that they rarely get to shine much.

I've also just realized, I'm pretty sure I've literally never seen the AI build a carrier. Granted, I don't have that many games that make it that far.

 

[Cat-du-fromage]

carrier are bad idea againt boats since your air forces will be destroy by the enormous base air defense of the ships, their only purpose is to have an mobile airport to attack cities.

But i kindy agree with you about naval issues, after a lot of multiplayer naval battle, there is only 2 viable naval ships(melee and range), submarines are too easily counter since all melle ships have a bonus against them

 

[JamesNinelives]

They can also provide mobile air defense if you put fighters on them, and with bombers they can support land units in a way that other naval units can't. Even in purely naval battles, bombers and fighters are relatively long-ranged, so they can be good for finishing off targets behind a wall of other ships, or who are trying to flee.

Granted I haven't been using them much at all lately because iron was at a premium. I'll hopefully get to play around with them a bit more on the most recent patch.

 

[pineappledan]

I have to side with @JamesNinelives here. I have found the latest few patches’ naval combat to be a vast improvement over the previous patches. The shoot’n’scoot wasn’t unique to naval either, and naval combat evolves over the eras in interesting ways.

I haven’t had much time to play with subs; I’m either dominant with my navy by that point, or I’m ignoring navies completely with a coastline bristling with artillery. I’ve never had a situation where I needed to wrest control of the seas away from someone in Modern. I can certainly understand the issue with subs being lacklustre as combat units by that point though. This would confirm my, up to this point, merely “on paper” suspicion that subs don’t have a well-defined niche right now, and should have their promotion line re-tooled to enhance a roll as a naval TR and tile pillager, ranged harasser, and scout.

 

[JamesNinelives]

I pretty much never take the non-sub naval promotions on submarines. Wolfpack just seems so much better. Extra movement, extra sight, and damage on attacking seems perfect for their role, which from my point of view is more or less as you describe it. Pillaging, harassing, and patrolling. Although I don't use them as front-line scouts - my melee naval units tend to take that role as they are more durable and can usually see and move further.

That said, now that cruisers and battleships aren't shoot and scoot anymore that's kind of a niche that submarines can fill. They're a bit like the ranged cavalry of naval warfare. Granted not everyone is in love with ranged cavalry, but I find that role useful.

Melee naval units not requiring strategic resources in the latest patch may change things up though. Subs used to be great as a compliment to your existing navy that didn't require iron. We'll have to see if the AI spams destroyers or not, because that would make the submarine niche a bit smaller. Which would be sad, given they require a strategic resource themselves.

 

[pineappledan]

Why do subs even need 2 promotion trees? At this point it’s clear 1 tree has a lot more love put into it and actually accounts for subs being a different unit class than cruisers. There’s only 2 units in the whole game; they don’t need 2 full trees to feel unique, coming up with 2 viable and balanced trees with unique focuses for a fairly limited unit is too much energy spent on such a minor aspect of the game.

it seems making Wolfpack a special standalone tree, and maybe adding 1-2 more lead promotions would be a fine place to leave things.

 

[Tekamthi]

OP statement captures my feelings perfectly on VP naval game.. though I'm a bit of broken record on this topic, having felt this way for a while.

Though stalled, some discussion took place here, still recent enough to not quite declare dead i think. Hoping to see this aspect of vp developed further

 

[JamesNinelives]

Why do subs even need 2 promotion trees? At this point it’s clear 1 tree has a lot more love put into it and actually accounts for subs being a different unit class than cruisers. There’s only 2 units in the whole game; they don’t need 2 full trees to feel unique, coming up with 2 viable and balanced trees with unique focuses for a fairly limited unit is too much energy spent on such a minor aspect of the game.

it seems making Wolfpack a special standalone tree, and maybe adding 1-2 more lead promotions would be a fine place to leave things.

I'm not sure what you mean. Wolfpack is a standalone tree isn't it? Subs effectively have three promotion trees. The other two are just direct copies from the generic naval promotions.

 

[pineappledan]

Right, so remove subs’ access to the other trees, and make Wolfpack the only tree that subs get, and pour all your love on that tree

 

[HungryForFood]

I like the new naval combat, simply because it is harder to outplay the AI. The previous shoot-and-scoot navy starts to break when you stack too many movement bonuses.

For submarines, I take Targeting, but only for Logistics. Not sure if optimal.

 

[Stalker0]

Ultimately, navy is a side show in Civ 5...that is core to the game's design. Civ 5's combat system is all about taking cities. The complexities of trade (and disruption of trade), and the vast improvements in production that sea travel creates are only lightly touched on in the game. Contrast that to EU IV for example, which has a complex trade system that your naval presence directly effects. The large variety of roles that a RL navy performs isn't strongly represented in the game, so a "shallow feeling navy" is by some measures part of the design.

So that's the base. I am not saying that can't be improved upon, but its also the question of how much should be core mod vs mod mod....and how aggressively should the game be changed?

So this touches on the most important question....what more are people really looking for in their Civ 5 navy?

 

[JamesNinelives]

Well, I think a bit more diversity in how naval combat plays out is something everyone would be fairly happy with. Promotion trees aren't a bad place to start, and I certainly wouldn't mind more sub-specific promotions. There are a number of other units that could benefit from pomotion adjustments of course, but it doesn't hurt to work on some ideas.

Contrast that to EU IV for example, which has a complex trade system that your naval presence directly effects.

To be honest, I'm not sure that's really relevant. To my mind EUIV is a different kind of game. And making naval combat a bit more interesting isn't making too big of a change IMO. And having promotions such that units have fill different roles seems a reasonable way of going about that. I think already we've seen significant improvements in naval combat. So it's not beyond our abilities!

 

[Stalker0]

And having promotions such that units have fill different roles seems a reasonable way of going about that. I think already we've seen significant improvements in naval combat. So it's not beyond our abilities!

Sure, different roles are possible. My question is....what roles are people looking for that we don't have yet?

We currently have:

1) Tank (Dreadnought / Vanguard)
2) Explorer (Navigation I and II)
3) Unit "Slower" (Minelayer Promotion)
4) Pirate (Blockade and Piracy)
5) City Taker (Melee: Vanguard + Naval Siege, Ranged: Bombardment)
6) Stealth Unit (Submarine)
7) Splash / Artillery (Ranged: Splash, Melee: Encirclement)
8) Carrier (Carrier, Missile Cruiser)
9) Anti-land (Targetting III, Shrapnel Rounds)
10) Skirmisher (Submarine)

I would argue naval promotions are already much more diverse than land based ones. So what niche is missing from promotions that we could fill?

 

[JamesNinelives]

Sure, different roles are possible. My question is....what roles are people looking for that we don't have yet?

I would argue naval promotions are already much more diverse than land based ones. So what niche is missing from promotions that we could fill?

I get the impression you are arguing that there is no need for change. That's fine. The point of discussion though is to develop new ideas! It's not going to hurt any of us explore the possibilites, and you won't know what can come up with unless you are willing to try.

Here's a starter: most of those promotions you mention are *only available* after 2 or 3 other promotions. The vast majority of my naval units never get past 3 promotions, and even those that do spend most of their lifetime on the lower tiers. A role that is restricted to only veteran units is a role that plays a relatively small part in the dynamics of naval combat, particularly for those who aren't combat experts or who are defensive players. Sure, in late-game things can get much more interesting, but what about before then?

We were talking about submarines before, and there is little effective choice in the promotions you can choose if you want them to be effective. Wolfback is the best, hands down. Now imagine if subs had more options than just Wolfpack 1 -> Wolfpack 2 -> Wolfpack 3. Granted, these lead to other promotions but for most subs that get produced it's pretty samey. Literally every sub I build, for example, will have the same promotions. Similarly, all of my ranged units and all of my melee units will start with the same three promotions because that's the option that allows them to be most versatile (and on a large map with lots of territory relative to the number of units I have, versatility is key).

Imagine for example if ranged naval units could actually be decent scouts. Currently all of my melee units go into the scout role because (again, large map, lots of water) I need that vision and mobility badly. If ranged units were any good at providing vision and mobile responses I could afford to diversify my melee units and have some of them be more aggressive, or tanky, or mess around with things that are more niche.

Those options often aren't even really available though. For the first half of my game, my ships are only going to have 1-2 promotions. Similar to how the first 2-3 ranks for infantary don't do all that much, my roles my naval unit have (and nature of my naval warfare) is pretty samey. I basically have two types of ships - ranged and melee, and that's it. I don't care too much if I loose any because they are replacable, and those built in later eras often start with more experience than those I've managed to keep alive from earlier eras.

Now, that's just me throwing ideas around. I'm trying to give us something to work with though. If this subject is fruitless then it will die out naturally from lack of interest. I think it's worth trying to see if we can do something new though. It's not like we're not at risk of making things less interesting.

 

[Bromar1]

I think part of the monotony for me comes from the fact that most naval engagements in the open sea just come down to who can stack wipe the other first. It is really hard to hold non friendly territory with navy when you can't heal in place. With land units, you can really force an opponents hand by stationing troops just outside their range while it slowly heals. With navy, I have much less incentive to chase down damaged units because even if they get away, it will take a much longer time for that unit to come back. Usually my naval strategy is to move my entire attacking fleet as one big blob and maneuver into alpha strike range.
It's quite a paradox I find. Too much movement speed and naval combat becomes who can get the first big flank. Too little and then it takes ages to get anywhere.

 

[Bromar1]

Sure, different roles are possible. My question is....what roles are people looking for that we don't have yet?

We currently have:

1) Tank (Dreadnought / Vanguard)
2) Explorer (Navigation I and II)
3) Unit "Slower" (Minelayer Promotion)
4) Pirate (Blockade and Piracy)
5) City Taker (Melee: Vanguard + Naval Siege, Ranged: Bombardment)
6) Stealth Unit (Submarine)
7) Splash / Artillery (Ranged: Splash, Melee: Encirclement)
8) Carrier (Carrier, Missile Cruiser)
9) Anti-land (Targetting III, Shrapnel Rounds)
10) Skirmisher (Submarine)

I would argue naval promotions are already much more diverse than land based ones. So what niche is missing from promotions that we could fill?

There are many variations but they all come so late in the tech tree.
Here's my proposal: drop most of the +% attack modifiers from naval units and double down on the "passive" qualities (eg. Health, speed, cover, etc)
With so little unit and terrain variation in naval combat and all these +% mods, it just boils down to who can maintain the biggest stick.

Maybe the promotions should be treated more like "talents" from RPGs. Instead of locking away high value promotions behind lots of prerequisites, make them only allowed to be chosen once at certain level. For example:
Melee naval units:
Lvl 1: supply, city assault, navigator
Lvl 2: breacher, piracy, dreadnought

Having the juicy promotions locked behind an opportunity cost instead of a raw experience cost would let you create "builds" to fit your needs while preventing abusive super units. Do you want fast gold stealing scouts or slow tanky capital ships? Now you have to choose one instead of getting all in one.

A lot of skills might need to be shuffled around to fit this. For example, piracy might want to get +1 move to compete with dreadnought.

As for the excess experience, maybe have +X% defense or attack come back as filler after lvl6(?) Or so

 

[JamesNinelives]

There are many variations but they all come so late in the tech tree.
Here's my proposal: drop most of the +% attack modifiers from naval units and double down on the "passive" qualities (eg. Health, speed, cover, etc)
With so little unit and terrain variation in naval combat and all these +% mods, it just boils down to who can maintain the biggest stick.

Maybe the promotions should be treated more like "talents" from RPGs. Instead of locking away high value promotions behind lots of prerequisites, make them only allowed to be chosen once at certain level. For example:
Melee naval units:
Lvl 1: supply, city assault, navigator
Lvl 2: breacher, piracy, dreadnought

Having the juicy promotions locked behind an opportunity cost instead of a raw experience cost would let you create "builds" to fit your needs while preventing abusive super units. Do you want fast gold stealing scouts or slow tanky capital ships? Now you have to choose one instead of getting all in one.

A lot of skills might need to be shuffled around to fit this. For example, piracy might want to get +1 move to compete with dreadnought.

As for the excess experience, maybe have +X% defense or attack come back as filler after lvl6(?) Or so

I think perhaps for this to work the lower level 'talents' would have to be balanced a bit so that experience is still valuable. It would certainly make naval combat more versatile and interesting though!

 

[tommytoxen]

am i the only one who actually enjoys the slog? i love naval battles now they're so intense.

i built a navy as i usually do, when i build a navy i split them up into fleets who control various parts of the map's oceans. by time i get to frigates i pretty much dominated the oceans. but the war i was in last week i was caught by surprise, no joke the AI threw everything they had at my one isolated fleet defending a city state ally over there. it was a huge slog out and i lost all but 2 ships (down from 12). but must have sunk at least 16 of theirs, and they still had another 10 or 15. i couldn't believe the size of the fleet they sent (portugal)

i love how they use the ships correctly too. they seem to bombard me with the battleships first then hit me with the frigates and they're so meticulous, they focus on one ship at a time they don't just randomly attack any old ship.

i've increased the size of my fleets since then (mostly melee to defend my ranged) and always make sure to scout the area properly.

and tbh im not sure what can be done to naval combat, i fear any changes would just create more problems than it would solve, if there are any problems (i personally don't think so but i know that's subjective i respect others do). the promotions suggestion is a good one, but i already use a promotions mod that adds new promotions anyway (forgot which).

the only time i don't enjoy naval battles is when i have less iron than the enemy but then that's our own fault for not securing sources of iron. that's for our land troops to solve, and not the mod's