Naval elements of Civ4 still underrepresented!

[T.A JONES]

Very good. But we are missing one very important thing and thats the AI abilty to conduct D- Day invasions, basicly massive over-seas attack operations. Its one thing the Ai really sucks at and therefor this directly influences the importance of navy units in Civ4

if the Ai could effectly transport vast amounts of troops across the oceans or seas transports would become the ultimate target and therfore ultimaly protected by fleets of warships. I would be trying to control the seas to stop any nation from sneakin up to my shores with a death squad.

As is now we don't fear when the AI Transports drops anchor. All three or four of them. Things would change if 8 to 12 showed up. Only then would I say its time to build a navy right? , so its time to build an AI with that one Oversea invasion aspect capabilty. Only then will the battles lines be redrawn

I agree with you dh_epicbut Ive got to go back to what I originally said for it was ilea refuted by Aussie Lurker.
A way or reason for the Navy to play a bigger part in the game is to Fix the way the AI uses it

 

[elpollodiablos]

I agree that the navy is under-represented but many of the fixes listed would harm the elegance of the game with minute complexity. I think that designers either don't care or can't figure out how to do it right. Civilization 2 and even 3 had more a naval depth.

Here's my fix to the naval problem:

1) Fix the trading system so we have a reason to go to the sea:

You need roads to connect trade routes on land, so require the equivalent, shipping lanes, for the sea. Modify the worker boat to be able to make these improvements for water tiles. To prevent programming complexity, treat lanes like roads, neutral are everyone's, and owned work for you and your allies. You could make shipping lanes only useable by the civilization that built them but that would make proper pillaging difficult and the tile too crowded. For a trade route to exist by water the same rules are used as for roads. So merely placing a few ships on trade routes around another civilization severs its trade but would leave your trading (going through the exact same square) intact. Pillage shipping lanes would harm everyone's trade network, as it did in history (remember German U boats). Generic trade gold would only exist if a trade route was present; in fact increasing that gold should lead to more interest in naval trade. Naval travel is gruelingly slow, so have shipping lanes work like roads in terms of movement.

2) Fix the military so that naval combat is more interesting.

Use the same old triangle of military supremacy that is used in every RTS. In this case. Big beats medium beats small beats big. For ancient times it Quadreme beats Trireme beats Bireme beats Quadreme. For modern times its Battleship beats Destroyers beats Submarines (yes, I'm aware that some submarines are as big as aircraft carriers so they are not small) beats Battleship. Navy only upgrades are a must and to be interesting should include gaining gold (plundering) through killing transports, % chance of capturing the vessel, % chance of being able to move through naval units (blockade running). Ships should be able to fight in port but give the defender the defensive culture bonus that land units get. Let naval units bombard cities to both damage culture defense and harm units. Resurrect an old improvement, coastal battery, to allow the city to damage the ship back.

3) Give civilizations naval bonuses and unique units.

Unique unit ideas are not in short supply. Give England back its Man O' War from Civilization 3. German U boats, American aircraft carriers, Viking longboats, the naval equivalent of fast worker (for Spainish, English, Portugese, or Dutch), and even Korean turtle ships (out of Age of Emipires 2).

As well create two naval traits: Explorer and Admiral (I know they're not adjectives but none suitable came to mind). Explorer would have ships, scout, and explorer more faster and increase gold through naval trading. Admiral would give experience to all naval units created.

Sometime later I'll ponder air combat. It's too much random tile destruction and useless against units to be an effective use of resources.

 

[dh_epic]

What are the problems with the naval AI that don't apply to pretty much every other aspect of combat and gameplay? Truthfully, the most relevent time for a navy is in the modern era, and by then I'm smoking the AI or avoiding war so I can win the space race. Can't say I've had much of a chance to really look at what the AI should be doing. I don't use much of a navy and I win all the time. Why should they?

 

[T.A JONES]

Im sure the AI has some reasons why they could benifit from having a wider attack stategy, also Ocean invasions arn't limited to one specific era.

from other post....Ive seen Stacks of doom coming from land locked countries but never from Large Island nations arriving on fleets of transports so thats what differant from the other aspects of play

 

[yavoon]

What are the problems with the naval AI that don't apply to pretty much every other aspect of combat and gameplay? Truthfully, the most relevent time for a navy is in the modern era, and by then I'm smoking the AI or avoiding war so I can win the space race. Can't say I've had much of a chance to really look at what the AI should be doing. I don't use much of a navy and I win all the time. Why should they?

there is no irrelevant time for a navy. navy has been ENORMOUSLY important in world history, all of it, from the BC's to present day.

 

[El Koeno]

elpollodiablos: I like the idea of a unit that has to build trade routes over the sea. It might be a bit strange to build "roads" on the sea though. Maybe a merchantman unit that simply has to sail to a trading partner once to start the trade route would be more approriate. Diplomatic trades and trade-routes between cities would then be possible by that shipping route, untill it is blocked by a rivaling navy, or pirates of course.

 

[JavalTigar]

I like the blockade by placing a ship in a city radius. as long as we create a modified caravel to be a privateer ala C3C. it stays hidden until seen by a opposing vessel and it can attack and be attacked without causing war. but it would be good if there was some type of random factor that would let you know who was behind the attack. maybe a 1 in 20 chance.

 

[Randolph]

JavalTiger,
I'm glad someone noticed it and liked it. A lot of the ideas here are very interesting, but I really can't see them being implemented. I doubt the designers would implement a whole new system into the game (like building trade routes or having dozens of merchant ships sailing around).

Being able to divert some of the trade you blockade to your civ would make it particularly enticing.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

But Randolph, we are not talking about a major redesign of the game. Although I-with my lousy modding skills-would have difficulty implementing any of my ideas, I know of almost half a dozen modders here who could (and perhaps HAVE) make these changes to the game in a SNAP!!! I know Dale's Combat mod makes navies and airforces MUCH more important. My issue is that we shouldn't need MODS to have this balance, it SHOULD be in the core game
As for the game 'being over' by the industrial age, well I think that is such a cop-out. Perhaps if combat was more interesting, in every age, then people might be willing to stick it out to 2050-whether the game is over or not!

Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Mr. Do]

One ridiculously simple change to naval units I'd like to see is denying two civs who don't have open borders from using the same tiles. I recall one game I was playing, I saw a peaceful neighbour's big but inferior naval stack coming towards my continent, so I placed five destroyers around their galleons and frigates, blocking their path to my lands, hoping that they'd get the point and not declare war on me. I hit enter, thinking that in the worst situation they'd have to go around me and take another turn to get to my borders, but I had foolishly forgotten they could just go straight through my ships, declare war, then enter my territory. And my ships had to just stand there while a huge army approached my lands to take my cities? Nuts!

 

[yavoon]

One ridiculously simple change to naval units I'd like to see is denying two civs who don't have open borders from using the same tiles. I recall one game I was playing, I saw a peaceful neighbour's big but inferior naval stack coming towards my continent, so I placed five destroyers around their galleons and frigates, blocking their path to my lands, hoping that they'd get the point and not declare war on me. I hit enter, thinking that in the worst situation they'd have to go around me and take another turn to get to my borders, but I had foolishly forgotten they could just go straight through my ships, declare war, then enter my territory. And my ships had to just stand there while a huge army approached my lands to take my cities? Nuts!

makes perfect sense to me. besides tile blocking is a little dumb.

 

[CantaloupeKing]

What I'd like to see is a group of ships, or small boats, featuring boarding parties. If, for example, a ship could move close enough to an enemy vessel containing a mere settler worker or inferior fighting force, the attackers could simply capture the boat and all of its inhabitants, like capturing a city and getting a free worker.
I guess the only way to do this is for the makers to create an action that when you're adjacent to an enemy naval unit and have not used up all of your movement points, that you could, depending on the boat type you're in, board the enemy ship and take all their rum, women and maps and simply take control of the ship
-The King

 

[yavoon]

What I'd like to see is a group of ships, or small boats, featuring boarding parties. If, for example, a ship could move close enough to an enemy vessel containing a mere settler worker or inferior fighting force, the attackers could simply capture the boat and all of its inhabitants, like capturing a city and getting a free worker.
I guess the only way to do this is for the makers to create an action that when you're adjacent to an enemy naval unit and have not used up all of your movement points, that you could, depending on the boat type you're in, board the enemy ship and take all their rum, women and maps and simply take control of the ship
-The King

wth is close enough? each tile represents a massive amt of land, or water. though yes pre modern some ship stealing would be fun, though it shouldn't have to do w/ the cargo.

 

[Mr. Do]

makes perfect sense to me. besides tile blocking is a little dumb.

What, the way they passed straight through my fleet unchallenged even though they were clearly going to be used to invade me? Oh well, I guess even though this change won't ever happen, I can at least use my ships to blockade the tiles next to my own land- the AI ships can't pass through them, thankfully...

 

[dh_epic]

there is no irrelevant time for a navy. navy has been ENORMOUSLY important in world history, all of it, from the BC's to present day.

But I was talking about Civilization.

Why should the AI make better use of the navy when I can win the game pretty consistently with barely any navy at all?

If the navy is lacking in Civ, it's not the AI that's lacking.

 

[yavoon]

But I was talking about Civilization.

Why should the AI make better use of the navy when I can win the game pretty consistently with barely any navy at all?

If the navy is lacking in Civ, it's not the AI that's lacking.

true, like I've said and others as well. navy needs to become economically important to be built.

 

[yavoon]

What, the way they passed straight through my fleet unchallenged even though they were clearly going to be used to invade me? Oh well, I guess even though this change won't ever happen, I can at least use my ships to blockade the tiles next to my own land- the AI ships can't pass through them, thankfully...

ships dont blockade other ships w/ their hulls. u actually have to shoot ppl in a blockade.

 

[CantaloupeKing]

I say there should be a 'Repel' promotion for naval units. They get better at stopping another ships advance through neutral territory, perhaps a choke point that you don't want them to get through. Maybe something dumb like put spikes all over the ship and douse it with oil, cover it in a layer of gunpowder and have one guy with nothing to live for stay onboard and steer right into a potential crosser's ship. You know what comes next...that guy lights a match or bonfire and KABOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO...OOOOOOOOMMMMMMM!!!!! fire, fire fire. burning everybody dies. Oh yeah, thats the way to go. Long Live the Aztecs!
-The King

 

[bioelectricclam]

Haven't read much of the thread here, so sorry...but the best way to make the navy important in my opinion is to add in undersea colonies, al la the Call to Power spinoff series.

How I do miss those future techs that actually did something...

 

[Naokaukodem]

One thing is obvious in Civ4: you can't transport bombers in carriers.

So this is obvious also that they did it intentionally.

They probably thought that it would have been too much powerfull. Or maybe this was intended to be implemented in Warlords?

Anyway, beside that, I would want one thing to enhance naval warfare: to make battleships much more powerfull that they are in bombardment. First of if you look at their power they should be much more powerfull than a couple of tanks. Second, one battleship should be enough to destroy the cultural defense of a city in a couple of turns. No matter if they are more expensive. I want a more powerfull and funny battleship! Say like one enhances their bombard ability by three and doubles their cost. (not to forget to adjust the power of naval units according to land ones too)