Navies

[albie_123]

Ah, okay, I like that idea. I misunderstood, I thought Melee ships were based around taking cities. A dedicated anti-naval unit makes much more sense.

With that in mind, is it really necessary to have an extra melee unit in the modern era, once we've got Subs? They seem to fill that role pretty well.

 

[Thalassicus]

Check out the new table I added to the earlier post. This discussion with you has helped clarify ideas for melee ships. I honestly wasn't sure until now what sort of role they could fill... they really make sense as an anti-ship extension of the submarine!

The transition to subs might go something like:

1. Earlier melee ships with high experience upgraded to Marines, the last melee naval unit.
2. Marines used for anti-ship warfare, and occasionally capturing cities.
3. Submarines introduced with low experience. Marines and subs now share the anti-ship role.
4. As subs gain experience, they gradually replace marines for anti-ship warfare. Marines retain a role for amphibious assaults subs cannot perform.

 

[albie_123]

Ah, the table has definitely helped clear things up for me. Obviously this is one of those things that will require a lot of gameplay testing as well but right now it looks like it's a serious improvement on the current state of the Navy in CiV.

To make Marines have that edge over Submarines, maybe they could have a strength bonus against cities? It would be really cool to have a dedicated naval city assault unit in lategame - scout out with the destroyers, sink any boats that are protecting the coast with subs, bring in the battleships to soften the city, and get the marines to finish them off. I'm getting excited about this just thinking about it, and I have never been remotely interested in naval battle in CiV before!

That being said, the example scenario will never happen, because the core problem with the Navy in the game has been the AI's absolute lack of any basic knowledge of what to do. I am yet to ever have any opposition to an invasion over an ocean, all I've had to do is have a handful of battleships to bombard the opposition. Hopefully Firaxis focuses on this when designing the new naval features in G&K.

 

[Thalassicus]

I gave melee ships +100% vs cities in the table. Capital ships have +50% vs cities (unchanged). This gives marines and battleships equal base strength vs cities.

 

[albie_123]

Ah, didn't see that. This three-pronged naval system is definitely the way to go, in my opinion. It's just a matter of how well the AI can manage it.

Well, I guess now we just wait and see what Firaxis comes up with.

 

[Thalassicus]

I think we'll enjoy building a mixed navy even if the AI can't handle it. A combined arms approach can be fun even if not necessary. It's more exciting to handle a variety of units than spamming one or two.

 

[albie_123]

Understood, and totally agreed, but you have to admit, it's always more fun to be up against a strategic enemy than one who doesn't quite understand the game.

 

[Thalassicus]

Look at the early game too. I suspect a Trireme+Galley combo will be more fun and effective than focusing on one type. Weaken an enemy ship with a trireme ranged attack, then board them with the galley. Double-galleys would be incapable of bombarding land units... and double-triremes would die quickly to a galley. A mix will probably be the best approach.

I think I'll use two trireme+galley pairs in the early game. One pair will go scouting distant coastlines. The other pair will remain close to home to kill barbarians, and offer support if an AI attacks.

 

[wobuffet]

Understood, and totally agreed, but you have to admit, it's always more fun to be up against a strategic enemy than one who doesn't quite understand the game.

I think a lot of the upcoming G&K combat rule changes were made to make combat easier for the AI to handle, actually. Which is fine by me.

 

[albie_123]

The whole idea of 'boarding' got me thinking: In keeping with the Corsair theme, is it possible to make Suleiman's trait apply to not only barbarians, but ALL enemy ships (Perhaps before the discovery of Steam Power), but only when attacked by melee boats? That could be too complicated, mind you.

 

[Thalassicus]

@wobuffet
I'm hoping so.

@albie_123
Sure that's possible. It's not complicated, something like: "Melee ships capture defeated ships." I like that idea.

 

[The Boz]

I like the melee ships concept, but I do think the availability should be switched around, and that the very first ship should be melee, with the first ranged ship being a sidegrade. It would follow the trend of introducing a counter unit before the unit it counters is made available, especially if you do go ahead with the "melee ships capture" idea.

 

[albie_123]

Boz, I disagree, as Light ships are the faster, more exploration-oriented units (And for good reason, the fast + range combo makes them able to get away from the much stronger and slower Capital ships), and as such are much more useful and more logical to have first: To explore coastlines, find suitable spots for a second city, and to get an idea of the map for future military plans. Besides, Melee ships are not necessarily just a counter to Light ships.

 

[Thalassicus]

The goal is to make navies more important. If the first ship is melee, we can't use it to defend against land barbarians, and barbarian ships can't bombard our land units. This would probably make navies less important in the early game.

It would follow the trend of introducing a counter unit before the unit it counters is made available

Compare the galley>caravel, galleon>frigate, and marine>destroyer in the table. Each melee ship has more than the next tech level's light ship. I plan to also make melee ships cost slightly less than light ships.

 

[The Boz]

OK, point.

 

[albie_123]

I was bored, so I made a generic icon for the Galleon, since I don't think there is one for it at the moment.

 

[Dunkah]

So when it comes to Naval Melee Units. Do they simply attack like a melee unit only on water or do they litterally have a Marine unit onboard that does the attacking?

Having some sort of Marine unit onboard that could feasably dismount and grab ruins and such on distant shores would be awesome. Leaving the unit on land for too long would make the ship itself vulnerable to attacks from other ships.

 

[Txurce]

My question about the table has to do with relative Melee strengths. All units have one, but presumably only units like Marines can actually "board" - correct?

And is there something that can be done with HP to make it impossible for steam/modern ships to be boarded?

 

[Thalassicus]

@albie
That looks fantastic! Could you upload the photoshop/illustrator/etc file, or a version with the background on an alpha map? It needs a transparent background outside the circle.

@Dunkah, Txurce
For now it's exactly like warriors/archers on water tiles instead of land. In the modern era you might rationalize it as the danger of small littoral attack boats like here and here.

 

[Txurce]

Can't argue with those references... and I'm really looking forward to it.

I had a chuckle over the idea of having 1-3 attack groups in addition to an army (and air force eventually).