ArchGhost
Prince
- Joined
- Aug 2, 2016
- Messages
- 582
Got it done, Domination in 1565Ad on Immortal.
I'll get the writeup posted in a little bit after I read some of the others. This map seemed really generous so should be some good stuff in there!
@Excal
sweet capitol there. Wonders went very slow in my game and it was pretty easy to get ahold of many building resources, seems like I missed an opportunity!
@krikav
Yes, come to the darkside of mass unit spam, where losses are ignored and you only stop pushing because the slider won't holdout at 0% anymore!

Very impressive death march you had going on there at the end!
EDIT: I'll put this here to avoid triple posting the thread!
NC 207: Have it your way
Immortal
No Huts
No Events
The start
Briefly touched on it in the thread, but the plan is to settle on that marble hill and go for an immediate settler with the big hammers + IMP bonus. Luckily, a Scout should help us find a decent 2nd city spot quickly enough, and then the gold +sheep spot (1S of gold) can be the 3rd city spot.
Charlie's techs need time to get to AH/any food tech and Mining both, so this also lets us get a bit ahead productively while waiting. I noticed some discussion about this upthread, with building a warrior and worker stealing seeming like a good alternative too. But I like the idea of having some pretty fast 3 or 4 city date
I'm leaning toward BW after that, and then the map will mostly determine teching after that, such as Agriculture (if grains/floodplains are found) or Wheel (to hook up the gold).
Think I will move the scout to the sheep, before the settler goes to the PHmarble.
Not terrible. The capitol seems to have only gained an ivory, but it will still has that sweet 3H center and can eventually work green cow + up to 2 green farms early enough. Not huge food but a lot of raw hammers with 3h center + cow + ivory + hills to compensate. The kind of capitol that grows to 5 up against the happy cap and just doesn't whip. Puts out a bunch of hammers for stuff like Archers or Chariots, though, and quite helpful for building Research/Wealth for a good while.
I'm satisfied enough with that spot, so I will settle and the scout will check the coast for seafoods I think.
Aha! Another green cow in the BFC, another PH to settle on that can share it, and a crab spot down south. Preliminary city plans on the pic.
Scout will continue along the coast. Settler started, AH tech.
T6
Border pop in the cap and scouting has made some revelations in corn to the southeast, stone and spice to the northeast, and most importantly, another gold for the 2nd city spot. Woot!
Though I have already run into some more decisions:
-I don't know how I really want to use the corn. Charlie has immediate monument access, so grabbing more hills with the NE spot seems okay, but the W spot could share Wine cottage immediately if I go Pottery soon enough.
-Might think about moving the West gold site to 2S of gold to pick up the crab? (EDIT: for some reason I thought it could work all three in that spot yesterday, but the crab is not sharable) This delays the gold until it pops its own borders (the capitol will grab the sheep at 100 culture), but is a stronger long run city with 2 foods. I guess it depends more on what's to the W/SW of it. But I will continue north first because....
-I want to scout out the stone area. With a quick second city to take over expansion duty and lots of natural hammers, something like Mids could be easy to get with stone. I just need to see if it can get some food or would just be a junker city.
T8
Contact with Justin. One of the best AIs (if not THE best), an IMP civ, and a religious spammer. He's right to the North of us, yeesh. Stone may be out, if he wants to go right for it himself. That's his capitol culture, so the way North along the coast will be sealed soon. Just as well, I'm starting to see Jungle, so he's probably right against the Jungle belt and I don't really want to go that way anyway. Scout will start heading West to see what can be seen.
T9/10
Buddhism founds, and next turn Justin converts. Yep, North is locked out now.
T14
Big turn.
Settler complete in Aachen. Worker (10t) started. Settler headed to PH for East gold + cow + Ivory.
AH is in and reveals horses down by the corn, so I know how I want to settle that now (1NE of corn). Also clears the tech up a little, as I want Wheel fairly quickly so as to get Chariots and ignore Archery.
Tech set to Mining for gold and mining some hills. Then Wheel>Masonry if I want to try Mids, or BW for anything else. (more on that in a sec)
There's not a lot of food between us and Justin, so settling Stone would have to be a junker city, probably right on it. If he doesn't go North to something I can't see, he's likely to snag the Rice/Cow spot to his West first. He has his own Horse too, so I'm not sure how likely he is to take the stone either...if the horse was outside his borders he'd be pushed that way too.
So, giving up on the stone idea, I see that this could probably be a good opportunity for a HA attack. Two golds, a source of horse in the backline, nothing too important to snag between us and Justin (who will push out Holy City culture anyway), he is a close target with flatland capitol, and lots of natural hammers for us.
Going for HA attack will probably go straight on to BW after Mining to get chopping opened up and then Wheel> Pottery. Or chops could even be used on Oracle instead? This map is quite generous
Either way, it seems the two gold mines and lots of hammers give options.
T16
Prague founded and starts its own worker (12T)
T17
Meet Mao's scout to the SW.
T18
Saladin met on the NW coast. He's North of Justin somewhere?
T21
Justin founds Thessalonica on the hill 1NE of the cows. More toward me than I thought, but I still expected him to steal that spot.
T22
Mining.
I think I will go for the HA attack route. I don't do it enough, and Justin is close-by. Maybe he'll grab the stone and build me Mids while I prepare :s
....I can dream though.
Tech set to BW. I can set up whips on Barracks or pre-chop until Wheel>Pottery. Lots of raw hammers means I can spam warriors for barbs.
I have to fit Fishing in sometime for the South city, and then on to Archery>HBR. Not sure if Writing is needed before HBR, there are two gold mines to use. But the eventual plan would be HBR > Writing > trade HBR for Alpha after some progress in it.
T24
Worker in Aachen, starts pasture on Cow 1S. Stonehenge for failgold; two barb animals are fogbusting the areas to my south at the moment so I'm chilling on the warriors for now.
I changed my mind and I want Wheel first. Hook up cities for more commerce efficiency, get the gold +ivory happiness, start on chariots a little quicker. Then BW.
T25
I find Mao's borders. The area between us is somewhat tundra-y and I'm unlikely to grab that fish spot from him anyway even if I wasn't going HAs. I might send something for the Pig/Furs later more toward Alpha/Currency, if he isn't up on me by then.
T26
met Izzy...somewhere. Saladin has Hinduism so she will likely go for Judaism.
T28
Worker in Prague, starting on Warriors for now. He goes to the Gold tile, while Aachen's worker goes to the E cow. Both will be improved in 4 turns.
T33
both workers head to the Ivory tile. Capitol will grow to 3 then start a settler. Prague will start one at size 2 when it can work Cow + Gold.
T34
Wheel. Start Fishing, as the next city will be Crab. City 5 will grab the gold after the cap pops border for the sheep and BW is in to whip the settler. Izzy indeed founded Judaism.
T35
Ivory is camped. Workers move to road Ivory/Gold and then road to the southern city spots to link them up immediately for less economic impact, and hook up the horses ASAP.
T42
Fishing. BW in 4 turns. Settlers coming out the next 2 turns.
T43
Settler in Aachen. back on Stonehenge for now
T44
Settler in Prague. Start a Worker.
T45
BW is in. Start Agriculture (whoops!). Vienna founded 1NE of Crab and starts a workboat.
T46
Stonehenge is finally built somewhere, so a lot of gold coming next turn.
Nuremberg founded, starts a monument for now (eventually to pop border for two extra forests/hills). I'll revolt to Slavery now so my workers can continue to road a bit and SH fail-gold will be ready next turn to run 100% slider.
T47
96g from SH, nice. Aachen working food growing on a Barracks so it can hit 4 sooner, border will pop in 5 turns for the sheep and I want to get ready to whip a settler.
T50
Overview. Aachen will hit 4 and start Settler next turn (working Warrior now because Barracks is 18/50 setup for a 2pop whip). Worker is helping chop out a workboat for Vienna next turn, and Nuremberg is getting horses hooked up next turn as well, when Agriculture will be done and the corn farm will start after. Warrior and Scout busting out West.
T51 Agriculture. Start Pottery.
T54
Pottery. Start HBR (12T at 100%). Granaries start in Prague, Vienna, and Nuremberg. Aachen 2pops whips a settler and will overflow into Granary.
T57
Augsburg founded. Sheep is already improved, workers moving to mine gold and road now.
T58
stupid barb warrior pillages Gold at Prague. Apparently Justin still hasn't settled the Stone area. will set back HBR a few turns, but he suicided next turn on the warrior in the city.
T60
Mao gets Writing, so OB with him.
T61
Justin builds Oracle. Not sure what he took yet.
T71
HBR. Archery started, then Writing > Alpha
T74
Archery is in, and Barracks are 2 pop whipped into Horse Archers. Chopping will begin in earnest with my 4 workers. Scouting Justin out with OB over the last couple turns has revealed he only just now settled the stone, so no Mids for me
He is pretty under defended though and I see no metal units.
T82
Turn of DoW on Justin.
Look at this! I was waiting for a small number of HAs or that city to hit size 2 before I went. It only had 2 chariots defending it so 3 HAs or 2HAs + chariot would probably be enough to take it....then this turn he goes and empties the city! And with a free wroker up for grabs too! Jeez. I CAN'T not take this pportunity....I have one HA up North that will try to Pillage his Iron next turn if he doesn't suicide units to kill it.
and that's all she wrote for that city. Dang. I can use it later with CS and the stone can go to failgold projects, So gonna keep it.
T83
Iron pillaged successfully. Horses are next, then the big push on Constantinople as the rest of my HAs assemble.
Justin got Alpha this turn, so might be a bribe next turn (bribes are most likely within 2 turns of DoW)
T84
Yeah. Justin sniped off my Shock HA guarding the Chariot on his Horse tile with a Spear I never saw anywhere, and bribed Mao in on me. Whatever. I will have my scout watching the West and there's a barb city out that way too which should screw up his pathing a little. Nothing he will be up to is gonna save Justin either way. It is annoying that I lose the trade route income though.
T86
Not sure how, but Justin snuck a Chariot out of Constantinople and into his briefly undefended city, taking it back. Funnily enough, that means one less defender in his Cap, and I took some average fights to leave only one Chariot there. Next turn it might fall, depending on what comes form the NW to reinforce.
T87
He never reinforced it. and his capitol falls while I take back the stone city. A quick heal up, some scary gestures to keep him off the Iron, and I'll hit in another spot.
T91
Take Thessalonica and trade HBR for Alpha from Saladman on this turn. Open borders with him since I need a buddy somewhere!
Start Currency tech.
T92
Snipe off a random wandering Mao archer and get a ceasefire. Heh. I guess the plan is to leave Justin alive on one city and extort tech for peace....he has Metal Casting already.
T93
Next!
T96
Take justin's 2nd to last city and peace out for Metal Casting, Math and Masonry, all techs no one else will trade. Trade HBR for Iron Working with Izzy. Next turn should get at least Sailing from Mao or Saladin (I forgot to do this, d'oh! I had to trade Currency to Saladin like 7 turns later for Sailing + Poly + Meditation). Izzy seems to be West of Mao somewhere, as her Missionaries stream from that direction.
With Masonry and Marble, NE and maybe GLib is on the table now. Now to swap to building Research to get to Currency for the moment though, then maybe whip some libraries. Gonna do some chopping into the Mids, as they still aren't gone yet. Should be some nice fail-gold if they last a few more turns.
Whoops, I forgot to fix the barb techs! Ah well, I figure at least one of Mao's 8 cities is probably another barb city that popped up, so I don't feel bad snagging this one. The other new barb cities do have archery by this point, I've been seeing, so he must have just left this one alone forever (it existed at least back before my DoW on Justin). His loss.
T101
Currency. Tech priesthood to open up Monarchy trade next turn.
T102
Priesthood. Well, only Saladin will trade Monarchy, I gave him Currency already cause I forgot to trade for Sailing when I could earlier, and I'm not giving him MC. I thought AIs would never monopolize Monarchy? Izzy and Mao are both WFYABTA with me. Whatever.
Tech idle while I just build wealth and try to recover the economy. Will go Aes > Lit next.
T106
Justin settled back in my face between the Rice/Ivory...so I DoWed him for it, with my remaining HAs.
Also, since nobody would build the Mids, I guess I just finished them. This has gotta be one of the latest times I've seen the AI leave them for, and it's not even a water map...
Temple of Artemis isn't even built either! That'll be more fail-gold with some chops+marble.
T107
Justin doesn't bribe Mao on me again, but Mao cancels all his trade deals....what a punk. I'm really beside myself trying to figure out why they like each other so much anyway, in different religions and Mao being so low in peaceweight compared to Justin. Random modifier strikes again.
Revolt into Representation before I forget.
T109
Justin is dead. Good riddance.
Took a break.
I'll get the writeup posted in a little bit after I read some of the others. This map seemed really generous so should be some good stuff in there!
@Excal
sweet capitol there. Wonders went very slow in my game and it was pretty easy to get ahold of many building resources, seems like I missed an opportunity!
@krikav
Yes, come to the darkside of mass unit spam, where losses are ignored and you only stop pushing because the slider won't holdout at 0% anymore!



EDIT: I'll put this here to avoid triple posting the thread!
NC 207: Have it your way
Immortal
No Huts
No Events
Spoiler turnset :

The start
Briefly touched on it in the thread, but the plan is to settle on that marble hill and go for an immediate settler with the big hammers + IMP bonus. Luckily, a Scout should help us find a decent 2nd city spot quickly enough, and then the gold +sheep spot (1S of gold) can be the 3rd city spot.
Charlie's techs need time to get to AH/any food tech and Mining both, so this also lets us get a bit ahead productively while waiting. I noticed some discussion about this upthread, with building a warrior and worker stealing seeming like a good alternative too. But I like the idea of having some pretty fast 3 or 4 city date

I'm leaning toward BW after that, and then the map will mostly determine teching after that, such as Agriculture (if grains/floodplains are found) or Wheel (to hook up the gold).
Think I will move the scout to the sheep, before the settler goes to the PHmarble.

Not terrible. The capitol seems to have only gained an ivory, but it will still has that sweet 3H center and can eventually work green cow + up to 2 green farms early enough. Not huge food but a lot of raw hammers with 3h center + cow + ivory + hills to compensate. The kind of capitol that grows to 5 up against the happy cap and just doesn't whip. Puts out a bunch of hammers for stuff like Archers or Chariots, though, and quite helpful for building Research/Wealth for a good while.
I'm satisfied enough with that spot, so I will settle and the scout will check the coast for seafoods I think.

Aha! Another green cow in the BFC, another PH to settle on that can share it, and a crab spot down south. Preliminary city plans on the pic.
Scout will continue along the coast. Settler started, AH tech.
T6

Border pop in the cap and scouting has made some revelations in corn to the southeast, stone and spice to the northeast, and most importantly, another gold for the 2nd city spot. Woot!
Though I have already run into some more decisions:
-I don't know how I really want to use the corn. Charlie has immediate monument access, so grabbing more hills with the NE spot seems okay, but the W spot could share Wine cottage immediately if I go Pottery soon enough.
-Might think about moving the West gold site to 2S of gold to pick up the crab? (EDIT: for some reason I thought it could work all three in that spot yesterday, but the crab is not sharable) This delays the gold until it pops its own borders (the capitol will grab the sheep at 100 culture), but is a stronger long run city with 2 foods. I guess it depends more on what's to the W/SW of it. But I will continue north first because....
-I want to scout out the stone area. With a quick second city to take over expansion duty and lots of natural hammers, something like Mids could be easy to get with stone. I just need to see if it can get some food or would just be a junker city.
T8


Contact with Justin. One of the best AIs (if not THE best), an IMP civ, and a religious spammer. He's right to the North of us, yeesh. Stone may be out, if he wants to go right for it himself. That's his capitol culture, so the way North along the coast will be sealed soon. Just as well, I'm starting to see Jungle, so he's probably right against the Jungle belt and I don't really want to go that way anyway. Scout will start heading West to see what can be seen.
T9/10
Buddhism founds, and next turn Justin converts. Yep, North is locked out now.
T14

Big turn.
Settler complete in Aachen. Worker (10t) started. Settler headed to PH for East gold + cow + Ivory.
AH is in and reveals horses down by the corn, so I know how I want to settle that now (1NE of corn). Also clears the tech up a little, as I want Wheel fairly quickly so as to get Chariots and ignore Archery.
Tech set to Mining for gold and mining some hills. Then Wheel>Masonry if I want to try Mids, or BW for anything else. (more on that in a sec)
There's not a lot of food between us and Justin, so settling Stone would have to be a junker city, probably right on it. If he doesn't go North to something I can't see, he's likely to snag the Rice/Cow spot to his West first. He has his own Horse too, so I'm not sure how likely he is to take the stone either...if the horse was outside his borders he'd be pushed that way too.
So, giving up on the stone idea, I see that this could probably be a good opportunity for a HA attack. Two golds, a source of horse in the backline, nothing too important to snag between us and Justin (who will push out Holy City culture anyway), he is a close target with flatland capitol, and lots of natural hammers for us.
Going for HA attack will probably go straight on to BW after Mining to get chopping opened up and then Wheel> Pottery. Or chops could even be used on Oracle instead? This map is quite generous

Either way, it seems the two gold mines and lots of hammers give options.
T16
Prague founded and starts its own worker (12T)
T17

Meet Mao's scout to the SW.
T18
Saladin met on the NW coast. He's North of Justin somewhere?
T21
Justin founds Thessalonica on the hill 1NE of the cows. More toward me than I thought, but I still expected him to steal that spot.
T22
Mining.
I think I will go for the HA attack route. I don't do it enough, and Justin is close-by. Maybe he'll grab the stone and build me Mids while I prepare :s
....I can dream though.
Tech set to BW. I can set up whips on Barracks or pre-chop until Wheel>Pottery. Lots of raw hammers means I can spam warriors for barbs.
I have to fit Fishing in sometime for the South city, and then on to Archery>HBR. Not sure if Writing is needed before HBR, there are two gold mines to use. But the eventual plan would be HBR > Writing > trade HBR for Alpha after some progress in it.
T24
Worker in Aachen, starts pasture on Cow 1S. Stonehenge for failgold; two barb animals are fogbusting the areas to my south at the moment so I'm chilling on the warriors for now.
I changed my mind and I want Wheel first. Hook up cities for more commerce efficiency, get the gold +ivory happiness, start on chariots a little quicker. Then BW.
T25

I find Mao's borders. The area between us is somewhat tundra-y and I'm unlikely to grab that fish spot from him anyway even if I wasn't going HAs. I might send something for the Pig/Furs later more toward Alpha/Currency, if he isn't up on me by then.
T26
met Izzy...somewhere. Saladin has Hinduism so she will likely go for Judaism.
T28
Worker in Prague, starting on Warriors for now. He goes to the Gold tile, while Aachen's worker goes to the E cow. Both will be improved in 4 turns.
T33
both workers head to the Ivory tile. Capitol will grow to 3 then start a settler. Prague will start one at size 2 when it can work Cow + Gold.
T34
Wheel. Start Fishing, as the next city will be Crab. City 5 will grab the gold after the cap pops border for the sheep and BW is in to whip the settler. Izzy indeed founded Judaism.
T35
Ivory is camped. Workers move to road Ivory/Gold and then road to the southern city spots to link them up immediately for less economic impact, and hook up the horses ASAP.
T42
Fishing. BW in 4 turns. Settlers coming out the next 2 turns.
T43
Settler in Aachen. back on Stonehenge for now
T44
Settler in Prague. Start a Worker.
T45
BW is in. Start Agriculture (whoops!). Vienna founded 1NE of Crab and starts a workboat.
T46
Stonehenge is finally built somewhere, so a lot of gold coming next turn.
Nuremberg founded, starts a monument for now (eventually to pop border for two extra forests/hills). I'll revolt to Slavery now so my workers can continue to road a bit and SH fail-gold will be ready next turn to run 100% slider.
T47
96g from SH, nice. Aachen working food growing on a Barracks so it can hit 4 sooner, border will pop in 5 turns for the sheep and I want to get ready to whip a settler.
T50


Overview. Aachen will hit 4 and start Settler next turn (working Warrior now because Barracks is 18/50 setup for a 2pop whip). Worker is helping chop out a workboat for Vienna next turn, and Nuremberg is getting horses hooked up next turn as well, when Agriculture will be done and the corn farm will start after. Warrior and Scout busting out West.
T51 Agriculture. Start Pottery.
T54
Pottery. Start HBR (12T at 100%). Granaries start in Prague, Vienna, and Nuremberg. Aachen 2pops whips a settler and will overflow into Granary.
T57
Augsburg founded. Sheep is already improved, workers moving to mine gold and road now.
T58
stupid barb warrior pillages Gold at Prague. Apparently Justin still hasn't settled the Stone area. will set back HBR a few turns, but he suicided next turn on the warrior in the city.
T60
Mao gets Writing, so OB with him.
T61
Justin builds Oracle. Not sure what he took yet.
T71
HBR. Archery started, then Writing > Alpha
T74
Archery is in, and Barracks are 2 pop whipped into Horse Archers. Chopping will begin in earnest with my 4 workers. Scouting Justin out with OB over the last couple turns has revealed he only just now settled the stone, so no Mids for me

T82
Turn of DoW on Justin.

Look at this! I was waiting for a small number of HAs or that city to hit size 2 before I went. It only had 2 chariots defending it so 3 HAs or 2HAs + chariot would probably be enough to take it....then this turn he goes and empties the city! And with a free wroker up for grabs too! Jeez. I CAN'T not take this pportunity....I have one HA up North that will try to Pillage his Iron next turn if he doesn't suicide units to kill it.

and that's all she wrote for that city. Dang. I can use it later with CS and the stone can go to failgold projects, So gonna keep it.
T83

Iron pillaged successfully. Horses are next, then the big push on Constantinople as the rest of my HAs assemble.
Justin got Alpha this turn, so might be a bribe next turn (bribes are most likely within 2 turns of DoW)
T84

Yeah. Justin sniped off my Shock HA guarding the Chariot on his Horse tile with a Spear I never saw anywhere, and bribed Mao in on me. Whatever. I will have my scout watching the West and there's a barb city out that way too which should screw up his pathing a little. Nothing he will be up to is gonna save Justin either way. It is annoying that I lose the trade route income though.
T86

Not sure how, but Justin snuck a Chariot out of Constantinople and into his briefly undefended city, taking it back. Funnily enough, that means one less defender in his Cap, and I took some average fights to leave only one Chariot there. Next turn it might fall, depending on what comes form the NW to reinforce.
T87

He never reinforced it. and his capitol falls while I take back the stone city. A quick heal up, some scary gestures to keep him off the Iron, and I'll hit in another spot.
T91


Take Thessalonica and trade HBR for Alpha from Saladman on this turn. Open borders with him since I need a buddy somewhere!
Start Currency tech.
T92
Snipe off a random wandering Mao archer and get a ceasefire. Heh. I guess the plan is to leave Justin alive on one city and extort tech for peace....he has Metal Casting already.
T93

Next!
T96
Take justin's 2nd to last city and peace out for Metal Casting, Math and Masonry, all techs no one else will trade. Trade HBR for Iron Working with Izzy. Next turn should get at least Sailing from Mao or Saladin (I forgot to do this, d'oh! I had to trade Currency to Saladin like 7 turns later for Sailing + Poly + Meditation). Izzy seems to be West of Mao somewhere, as her Missionaries stream from that direction.



With Masonry and Marble, NE and maybe GLib is on the table now. Now to swap to building Research to get to Currency for the moment though, then maybe whip some libraries. Gonna do some chopping into the Mids, as they still aren't gone yet. Should be some nice fail-gold if they last a few more turns.

Whoops, I forgot to fix the barb techs! Ah well, I figure at least one of Mao's 8 cities is probably another barb city that popped up, so I don't feel bad snagging this one. The other new barb cities do have archery by this point, I've been seeing, so he must have just left this one alone forever (it existed at least back before my DoW on Justin). His loss.
T101
Currency. Tech priesthood to open up Monarchy trade next turn.
T102
Priesthood. Well, only Saladin will trade Monarchy, I gave him Currency already cause I forgot to trade for Sailing when I could earlier, and I'm not giving him MC. I thought AIs would never monopolize Monarchy? Izzy and Mao are both WFYABTA with me. Whatever.
Tech idle while I just build wealth and try to recover the economy. Will go Aes > Lit next.
T106

Justin settled back in my face between the Rice/Ivory...so I DoWed him for it, with my remaining HAs.
Also, since nobody would build the Mids, I guess I just finished them. This has gotta be one of the latest times I've seen the AI leave them for, and it's not even a water map...
Temple of Artemis isn't even built either! That'll be more fail-gold with some chops+marble.
T107
Justin doesn't bribe Mao on me again, but Mao cancels all his trade deals....what a punk. I'm really beside myself trying to figure out why they like each other so much anyway, in different religions and Mao being so low in peaceweight compared to Justin. Random modifier strikes again.
Revolt into Representation before I forget.
T109

Justin is dead. Good riddance.
Took a break.
Last edited: