Need a Mongol Strategy

[G-Bustah]

Well since my last thread too get veryfication of my Elizabeth-Tactic, again, I need help!

To tell you what In eed shortly= I need a strategy my friend could use for his Mongols.
Cuzz I ain't really the warmonger type, so workin' out a tech-tree for it ain't rlly my style.

So plz, like I did with the Elizabeth, try tellin' me what civics to use (and why), in what order to research what technologies (FULL LIST plz, not like for rough example, go from bronzeworking too Rifling and some explains..) and also what too build as improvements etc.

So well, hope you genius's can help me out
[Or more specific, help my noob real-life friend who doens't know much of the game, like I do. ]


IMPORTANT NOTE: IT'S MEANT AS A NEUTRAL STRATEGY, but maybe more in direction of the ISLANDS-map type.

EDIT: We only play Civilization IV, no expansion packs.

Ty already!

 

[futurehermit]

Well, mongols are about the keshiks in the early game. This means a beeline to horseback riding (animal husbandry, archery) and hopefully some horses nearby (if not, go conquer some).

Keshiks are fast and good pillagers and can also take cities defended only by archers.

If you have copper or iron, always handy to match them with axes to ward off spears and spears to ward off elephants. Add catapults and a couple swords once you are able (elephants too if possible).

It's nice to use keshiks to immobilize an enemy empire (keep them off strategic resources, pillage food tiles, etc.) and then mop them up at your leisure with standard units (e.g., axes or swords/elephants + catapults, etc.).

Theocracy (theology), Vassalage (Feudalism), Slavery (Bronzeworking) are the early warmongering civics. If you conquer (or build) the pyramids then police state is great.

Later in the game you can add State Property (Communism) and Police State (Fascism).

Don't forget an economy though. Put down cottages or run scientists to keep your research going.

 

[GoodGame]

Besides the beelining to the animals/horseback riding, mongols get by with cities not much bigger than 4 to 6 to miss the overcrowding unhappiness mark.
I find the trick is to only settle next to a food bonus tile plus where there is also a few hills and/or bonus hammers. Then go for the barracks and the Ger and build the Keshik. I prefer to settle the Great Generals.

If you get a food rich/production poor city, use it for workers/settlers only. Pretty much you only need to found a handful of cities unless you raze what you capture.

 

[InvisibleStalke]

I like Kublai - in fact my highest score was with him. Creative for an early warmonger is great. You can get research going with cheap libraries and the borders take care of themselves.

I would still make bronzeworking a priority to get axes. Axes benefit with the aggressive trait, but keshiks don't. The Keshik aren't going to dominate the game - but they are awesome raiders and pillagers.

The Mongols can do awesomely well playing a suppression game, where your axes slowly capture cities but your keshiks raid deep and pillage like crazy. If you take out their strategic resources so they can only build archers, they will just cower in their cities while you get ahead, making them easy meat.

So you want to engage in early war, and once you have Keshiks you want to try and paralyze a couple of opponents AT THE SAME TIME. Don't try and take all their cities - just keep them paralyzed and assimilate them at a pace you can sustain. Often you can run your empire off pillage income.

And please don't play Mongols on an ISLANDS map - you won't see them shine at all. Great Plains is the map for them.

 

[varus]

I second the vote for Kublai.

I'm using him right now and I've got a pretty strong lead, but I'm only on the Prince level.

Creative is a very powerful early trait, but it looses it's fun later in the game. However, the Aggressive trait is useful for the entire game, so I find Kublai to strike a good balance between early and late power.

The game I'm in now had no copper, but I still had a very strong start. I used chariots (since I start with wheel) to all but conquer the french. Enough chariots will destroy a city garrison of either axes or archers. Just hope there aren't many spears. Anyway, once the French were down to once city, I used Keshiks to finish them off and then conquer some iron from Brennus. Once I had iron I was set to make axes and swords, and one of the cities I got from Brennus also had Ivory. Right now I'm working on the elephants (they get the nice bonus from the Ger) and catapults. Quin Huang is my opponent and he's quite advanced, but I think I can beat him with brute force. We'll see.

And uh, yea. The mongols wouldn't exactly be radiant on an island map.

The Keshik has the rare ability to move two spaces through any terrain (hills/jungles/ice included). That's pretty much all that they have against a regular horse archer, so if you play on a map that restricts movement, well, eh...
You basically just deleted your own Unique Unit.

 

[futurehermit]

Yeah, islands map isn't exactly a great choice for Mongols. Pangaea on the other hand...

 

[frob2900]

With the mongols you need to focus on actually getting those first keshiks out fast..

Latest 500 BC (preferably rather much earlier), since after that you'll almost certainly be facing lots and lots of spears..

The archery/horseback riding prereqs are surprisingly heavy compared to bronze working for axes. In the mean time you need to balance this with getting at least 3-5 cities with barracks/ger to pump keshiks once you have the tech. You will want a lot of them once you get going. Think "horde".

Get horseback riding before archery since you can build the Gers while researching archery.. As an aside, horseback riding can often be traded for some value, a rather convienent bonus to the mongols..

Once you have a bunch of keshiks, use their special no terrain movement cost ability to perform an early version of blitzkrieg. Do not make the mistake of wasting your horde on heavily defended hill cities, but move around a lot and conquer cities that are weakly defended (don't be afraid to raze either, think "Mongol horde" ). Sometimes it even pays to leave some of your conquests undefended since the AI (smart as it is) often moves out a stack from its large uber-fortified cities to take them back, thus allowing you to capture the larger city..

You want to time the tech research so you can wreak havoc pre-construction, since once you get catapults your overall strategy will change somewhat, due to the need of moving the slower siege stacks across the map.. Still, after catapults you can keep two campaigns going, one blitzkrieg stack of keshiks, one "conventional" stack of axes, keshiks and catapults.

If possible conquer the great wall.. Together with imperialistic youll then get lots of generals.. Settle them in your military city and you might be able to build commando promoted tanks later on.

I Love Genghis Khan

 

[InvisibleStalke]

You don't need to rush horseback riding quite so quickly. The Keshik isn't a game breaking unit that will be worth rushing to at all costs. Even when the AI has spears it never builds many in advance. The job of the Keshiks is to quickly remove the enemies copper / horses and iron so they can only build archers and pillage their economy. Then your axes and swords take cities. You can use Keshiks in this role right up to when Knights and Pikes are available.

 

[oyzar]

keshiks are just fine at playing "no metal? no mercy!"

 

[frob2900]

Chariots or Horse Archers will do for copper/iron pillaging. Keshiks should be utilized for their "Mobility" like built-in promotion. They really fly over a map so its easy to find weakly defended cities.

Getting them out early means getting at any city, anywhere due to their speed. With axes you are limited to your nearest neighbors, really.

You don't need to rush horseback riding quite so quickly. The Keshik isn't a game breaking unit that will be worth rushing to at all costs. Even when the AI has spears it never builds many in advance. The job of the Keshiks is to quickly remove the enemies copper / horses and iron so they can only build archers and pillage their economy. Then your axes and swords take cities. You can use Keshiks in this role right up to when Knights and Pikes are available.

 

[Leventis]

A few questions of my own. I'm reading here how everyone is advocating the use of keshiks as pillagers to hamper the ai civs, and I assume this will lead to longer wars as you are able to conquer at a more relaxed pace. Would this not therefore increase the level of war weariness and make happiness more of an issue than during the usual smash-n-grab wars? If so, would this make monarchy/HR a necessity to research or pop from the Oracle? I haven't really been good at a pillaging war early on so any advice would be welcome.

 

[Hackapell]

I believe the main mechanism for war weariness is your units in enemy lands dying, but I could be wrong about that.

 

[Reprisal]

True enough, Leventis. Though if you try for the Oracle, I think it'd be best to grab Monarchy unless you can try to conquer the Pyramids in your first attack with Horseback Riding.

Pillaging only really pays when you're situated next to someone who constructs copius cottages P), but it can always help when you want to cripple your opponent out of resources, improvements and roads. I've found pillaging roads really does a number on an enemy, too.

 

[futurehermit]

Most people here are right on: Keshiks are for pillaging and taking weakly-defended cities. I wouldn't recommend beelining them though. They're kinda "meh" compared to UUs like praets, etc. Just add them to your army once you're able to trade for hbriding/archery.

 

[frob2900]

Hmm.. I do tend to beeline them and it works for me. I find I can take out most of my neightbor using a Keshik beeline. They arent that much worse than swords once you have a GG in your military city (and that happens quickly with Genghis). Spears are nasty tho...

Would you say the Ger is more useful than the Keshik as a unique ability of the mongols?

Most people here are right on: Keshiks are for pillaging and taking weakly-defended cities. I wouldn't recommend beelining them though. They're kinda "meh" compared to UUs like praets, etc. Just add them to your army once you're able to trade for hbriding/archery.

 

[lukep]

Most people here are right on: Keshiks are for pillaging and taking weakly-defended cities. I wouldn't recommend beelining them though. They're kinda "meh" compared to UUs like praets, etc. Just add them to your army once you're able to trade for hbriding/archery.

hmm. i think they are a lot underestimated.

They are only really stopped by a strong unit (longbow or axe) fortified on hill city with wall.

The key is that even if they seems weak, they are (quite) cheap and promote very well. And reinforcements are fast on the front line.

So their use is very similar to Cyrrus's immortals but with a longer lifespan and better pillaging habilities.

I generally go Combat I, then flanking I+II or all combat with them, in a 50/50 mix.

They are my second favorite UU, the first being samuraïs

 

[InvisibleStalke]

Chariots or Horse Archers will do for copper/iron pillaging. Keshiks should be utilized for their "Mobility" like built-in promotion. They really fly over a map so its easy to find weakly defended cities.

Getting them out early means getting at any city, anywhere due to their speed. With axes you are limited to your nearest neighbors, really.

Chariots and Horse Archers can't get as quickly to take out the enemies copper and iron though. Keshiks can storm in and turn the enemy into a no metals civilization very quickly.

Taking distant "weakly defended" cities is a sure route to bankrupcy. Weakly defended cities that Keshiks can take on their own are smaller and less valuable. Taking lots of these at a distance that you can't reach with your axes will send you broke.

Of course you could use Keshiks to attack distant cities at the same time as axes attack closer ones, but if you have enough Keshiks and axes to have two stacks attacking an opponent, then why didn't you attack 20 turns earlier when you had your first stack? By the time you raise this superawesome force you could have conquered half their empire.

I don't see the power of Keshiks shining in full out war. They aren't much more powerful or useful than any other unit they have. Better to have 3 axes than 2 Keshiks. Where they shine to me is in skirmish war where you aren't trying to take an opponent out, but instead you:

- Take out their metals so they can't build spears which is the only counter to Keshiks.
- Pillage their cottages, special resources and farms
- Raze their tiny low defense cities.
- Meanwhile you continue to tech and maybe deal with other opponents. Only when you are ready do you turn your attention to them.

 

[Whitefire]

Kill things with Keshiks.

 

[frob2900]

Well, I've beaten Monarch/Standard Size/Pangea and Same Settings/Great Plains with Genghis through Keshik spam (admittedly with some Axe/Catapult backup to take out those super tough cities). The AI never survived to get Engineering.

The Ger Gives them two promotions off the bat so they can often do well against archers in +20-40% culture cities as long as you have numbers on the defenders. The withdrawal percent also plays a very real part here.

Too distant cities, with possible culture border problems etc. are off course no good for conquest and should be razed when necessary. Often, tho the AI spams a sizeable amount of cities rather close by to your empire. These can be lightning raided by keshiks. The quicker a war is over the better.

I must admit tho, that I perhaps sacrifice optimal play when I'm Genghis Khan; I play him as a "theme" leader more than any other. I agree with you wholeheartedly that the economical warmonger who counts hammers per conquest would tend to build axe/catas mostly.

One point that I don't think has been mentioned to is their use as "backup" axemen in the sense that the axeman horde can be very efficiently reinforced with keshiks since theyll reach it much faster than axe reinforcements. Just replenish dead axemen with keshiks when you need to patch up your stack of death quickly.

Chariots and Horse Archers can't get as quickly to take out the enemies copper and iron though. Keshiks can storm in and turn the enemy into a no metals civilization very quickly.

Taking distant "weakly defended" cities is a sure route to bankrupcy. Weakly defended cities that Keshiks can take on their own are smaller and less valuable. Taking lots of these at a distance that you can't reach with your axes will send you broke.

Of course you could use Keshiks to attack distant cities at the same time as axes attack closer ones, but if you have enough Keshiks and axes to have two stacks attacking an opponent, then why didn't you attack 20 turns earlier when you had your first stack? By the time you raise this superawesome force you could have conquered half their empire.

I don't see the power of Keshiks shining in full out war. They aren't much more powerful or useful than any other unit they have. Better to have 3 axes than 2 Keshiks. Where they shine to me is in skirmish war where you aren't trying to take an opponent out, but instead you:

- Take out their metals so they can't build spears which is the only counter to Keshiks.
- Pillage their cottages, special resources and farms
- Raze their tiny low defense cities.
- Meanwhile you continue to tech and maybe deal with other opponents. Only when you are ready do you turn your attention to them.

 

[InvisibleStalke]

Well, I've beaten Monarch/Standard Size/Pangea and Same Settings/Great Plains with Genghis through Keshik spam (admittedly with some Axe/Catapult backup to take out those super tough cities). The AI never survived to get Engineering.

The Ger Gives them two promotions off the bat so they can often do well against archers in +20-40% culture cities as long as you have numbers on the defenders. The withdrawal percent also plays a very real part here.

I had my highest score with Kublai with a domination win on Monarch on a Great Plains map. I fought and badly weakened three AIs before they had longbows - pillaging to keep my economy strong with a long period of keshik raiding and suppression before the infantry rolled in to capture the key cities before they sued for peace. Maybe because they were so suppressed, they didn't tend to have weak easily taken cities.

I didn't succeed in destroying them all before engineering though - my last three wars were with renaissance troops.

Too distant cities, with possible culture border problems etc. are off course no good for conquest and should be razed when necessary. Often, tho the AI spams a sizeable amount of cities rather close by to your empire. These can be lightning raided by keshiks. The quicker a war is over the better.

I forgot about conquest as a win option. I think for domination my statement holds - better to suppress with keshiks and take with axes. However a lightning conquest win could be greatly aided by keshiks.

I must admit tho, that I perhaps sacrifice optimal play when I'm Genghis Khan; I play him as a "theme" leader more than any other. I agree with you wholeheartedly that the economical warmonger who counts hammers per conquest would tend to build axe/catas mostly.

I like "theme" leaders too. I don't play the same leader twice and try to make each have a unique style of play. For Kublai it was the raiding horde that lived off the land pillaging as they went but disdaining cities.

One point that I don't think has been mentioned to is their use as "backup" axemen in the sense that the axeman horde can be very efficiently reinforced with keshiks since theyll reach it much faster than axe reinforcements. Just replenish dead axemen with keshiks when you need to patch up your stack of death quickly.

This is an excellent point. I tend to build more cavalry units in the late stages of a war for exactly this reason - and keshiks are faster still.