nerfing bronze working

[ButSam]

I wonder why, with 2 expansions, neither has nerfed BW at all. This would make research paths less straightforward depending upon play style. As it currently is, too much comes with BW.

Perhaps forest chops should be moved completely to Mathematics, or enabled with a new tech (logging)? That would make BW a military strategy tech. Sure, there's still Slavery, but at least there wouldn't be a bias toward civs which start out 1 tech closer to BW. You might actually see different research paths with this change, other than step 1: race to BW.

 

[oyzar]

I frequently end up getting a food tech first in SP. Getting those high food resources online is soo crucial.

 

[Flamer123]

not only online - researching argicultre/AH thereby improving a resource food tile like corn/cow etc is always better than chopping wood.
In BTS, chopping gets u 20 production (pre-math). if u improve a resource tile u usually get +2 food like corn/etc. that means u get a return value in 10 turns.
cows get u +3, so that's a return value in 7 turns.

I don't mind a change in BW, but really the main reason i go for it is for the bronze - chopping/slavery is just an added bonus to the real need for soliders early on. had slavery/chopping were a different tech i would not research it, rather trade it when i win the race to alphabet.

 

[Black_Waltz]

*nerfing* BW makes about as much sense as nerfing Civil Service.

 

[Cookie Crumbs]

If you removed forest chops with BW you'd be pretty screwed considering how the map generator in BTS loves to cover your fat cross with forests.
In earlier versions, however, it sounds like a good idea. Bronze Working is indeed an overpowered tech.

 

[AnaNg]

I frequently end up getting a food tech first in SP. Getting those high food resources online is soo crucial.

Really? In BTS I'm actually shying away from developing non-sea (fish clams) food resources until I get slavery and even some time after and even those.

The stupid city governor keeps changing my explicitly-placed stuff around, landing on high food plots and growing my city into unhappiness in seconds. I don't mind and quite like micromanagement but this is ridiculous. Slavery is a must-have for me early in BTS not for the copper - it's almost never anywhere near me anywhere these days - but just as a happiness manager and unit generator.

(someone please tell me they're going to fix that city manager)

 

[Qwack]

Move Slavery to Masonry.

 

[KMadCandy]

(someone please tell me they're going to fix that city manager)

the upcoming patch for BtS supposedly addresses at least parts of it. i am optimistic but will believe it when i see it, of course.

Tweaks to Governor, particularly "Emphasize Food"
Governor fills the food bar better
Governor works hamlets over cottages.
Fixed bug where city governor would sometimes work sub-optimal tiles Upon tile improvement, citizens no longer get assigned to new plots when governor is not automated.

the last one is the one that drives me up a tree. i mean come on, if i fire the governor then listen to me not to him you dorks! otherwise i'll show you what cruel oppression really is! or maybe i should be showing that bossy governor...

signed, someone

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

or maybe i should be showing that bossy governor...

Put him to work on the temple.

 

[QuixotesGhost]

Well, It already was nerfed - ages ago. You used to get a +30 chop straight at BW. Then they reduced it to it's current level and put the old level at mathematics.

 

[LuckyAC]

Really? In BTS I'm actually shying away from developing non-sea (fish clams) food resources until I get slavery and even some time after and even those.

The stupid city governor keeps changing my explicitly-placed stuff around, landing on high food plots and growing my city into unhappiness in seconds. I don't mind and quite like micromanagement but this is ridiculous. Slavery is a must-have for me early in BTS not for the copper - it's almost never anywhere near me anywhere these days - but just as a happiness manager and unit generator.

(someone please tell me they're going to fix that city manager)

Funny, my problem is growing enough early on, with all the workers and settlers to build.

Bronze working is a good tech, but I'm not sure it really distorts anything, I tend to get similar tier techs like AH and pottery earlier.

 

[carl corey]

With chops down to 20 hammers and Slavery having medium upkeep and causing slave revolts I think it's nerfed enough. Nowadays I rarely even use Slavery anymore unless I'm spiritual (and can change back when I don't need it). It just sucks to see your lovely size 6 capital down to size 4 and in revolt for one turn... And with copper seemingly rarer now, the benefits of Bronze Working are: maybe copper, rarely Slavery, and nerfed chopping. I think it's nowhere near as overpowered as it was in the beginning.

 

[L4zXX0r]

Bronze working isn't over powered. It takes twice as long to research as any of the other early researchable techs. Even if you start with mining, you could easily pick up two other techs in the time you grabbed bronze working. Plus, you don't get the full effects of bronze working until you have a worker. So that means stifiling growth early on as well. Ok, not really much of any downside here. Anyways, how could something be too strong if everyone has access to it? Just because they don't like that particular strategy? Bronze Working is fine. People who don't research it first, are not!

 

[Percy]

Anyways, how could something be too strong if everyone has access to it? Just because they don't like that particular strategy? Bronze Working is fine. People who don't research it first, are not!

If a tech is always the first or second researched, then it is too strong. Besides, your argument cannot hold because some Civs start one tech closer to it.

 

[pigswill]

I agree with Qwack: move slavery to masonry.

 

[ButSam]

Moving slavery to Masonry would be nice.

My complaint (which is very minor) is that the civs which start with Mining have a slight advantage in the race toward Bronze Working. That is my primary reason for posting this thread. I have no objections with a strategy that pursues a certain tech at the beginning, but I do have a slight problem with the strength of BW favoring civs that start closer to it, since it is almost always advantageous to research BW fairly quickly, for almost all game situations.

Sam

PS: I love both expansions, especially BtS with the espionage slider. That defeats my primary complaint, that spying was pushed back so far in the game to be pretty much worthless. Now, spying is equal with other main concerns. However, if I recall correctly, the nerf for BW came with a patch to Vanilla, not with an expansion. Still, it is a good start that I forgot about when I originally posted, but BW is still a bit too strong for one tech which is close to a starting tech (Mining) IMHO. BtS must be a great game (taking up far too much of my time! to have me resorting to listing some of my minor dreams

 

[ShadowKatana]

I think BWs been nerfed enough anyways.

Slavery causes revolt events in the capital now regularly, losing science, money, food, and production for a turn from your best city is pretty big, and its upkeep has been increased.

Chopping was nerfed awhile ago too.

Even if you did move slavery to masonry, it would still be researched first for the fact that it reveals copper and allows axemen and chopping.

 

[Diamondeye]

Moving Slavery to Masonry could be a good idea, although I don't know wether I'd like it... I kinda like the way BW is the alpha and omega in early techs... Also, as someone mentioned, Slavery is hell in the beginning with Random Events. I am about to quit random eventsw every time just because of that one, but I end up keeping them in for the quests

 

[carl corey]

I wouldn't have a problem with moving Slavery mainly because as I said I don't use it as much now.

About first techs: most of the time one of the following will be first or one of the first: Bronze Working, Animal Husbandry, Masonry. I'm discounting here the obvious Fishing when coastal with lots of seafood. Anyway, the reason is that one way or the other you'll need barb protection, and those are your three main options (with Archery a fourth one). You'll either want copper for Axemen, horses for Chariots, or the Great Wall if Industrious, maybe if Protective (see the Espionage & Protective thread), so regardless of where you move chopping and Slavery you'll still want one of those early on. I agree that without the random event linked to Slavery and with the 30 hammers/forest chops Bronze Working would have been a definite winner, but I don't think it really is one now. Many Spirituals will try to found a religion, those with Chariot Unique Units will try to locate horses first, if you have one or two AH resources in your fat cross and already know Hunting/Agriculture you're also more inclined to research AH. In fact I'm going to ask you (general 'you') to go in your game logs and see what was your early research path for a few games, just to see how prevalent a run to BW is.

 

[Percy]

A run to BW is very prevalent in my games, because i'm chopping and whipping a lot.
I do that because i've read everywhere from good players that it was a good way to speed up your early game, but to be honest, i've never really made sure it was true. Maybe, as you said, things have changed and it's not always the case.