New civilizations beyond BTS: More civs or no civ spam?

Civilizations beyond BTS: Which ones? (choose no more than 10; vote 1 of the last 3)


  • Total voters
    180
We have the Greeks and the Byzantine, Germany & Holy Romans, England & Celts, America & Native American, Sumer & Babylon. So why not Vikings & Sweden.:king:

Some of those are bad decisions (e.g. HRE) and some bad comparisons. E.g. the Americans and Natives, England and Celts, Sumer and Babylon, are entirely different civilizations, whereas Sweden is just one branch of Scandinavia. I've no problem with Sweden being in, but not Sweden and Scandinavia. That'd be like having England and Wessex, France and Normandy, or even Germany and Austria (oops ... people want that). But since the inclusion of the HRE, and even the Byzantines, doubling up has good precedent, so you're right, you can argue for Sweden on precedent. Then would come the question: Is Scandinavia really important enough to have two civs? My answer to that would be a firm no, even ignoring doubling up. I think there'd need to be another 30+ civs for individual Scandinavian countries to get representation in addition to the one Scandinavian civ.
 
READ HISTORY. Sealand is not within the borders or jurisdiction of England.

Also, the Sealand unique building, the pirate radio broadcast, would be the most fun in the game. (It has pirate in the name!)

Why do you find Sealand unworthy of its own civ?
 
Because, it's population is only 5?

It isn't even a village, let alone a country.

It has contributed nothing to the world other then annoying the british government.

Nobody recognizes they exist.

it deserves to be in on the 500th expansion and That's being kind, more like 1000th...

More then enough reasons.
 
^and i have barely heard of it. :P <-- not important

i also thought you said SeaWorld when you first said it. :lol:
 
What is Sealand? Sounds like a ride at Disney World.

or some part of SeaWorld (in San Diego, for those who don't know... you can Wiki or google it if you want :) )
 
You couldn't even give Sealand cities. Don't add the Nautilis Pirates from SMACX into Civ4, please!

I don't think too many civs have been added currently, but I would have liked to see a few different ones (HRE -> Austria, call Ethiopia by its historic name Abyssinia, replace generic "Native Americans" with a specific civilization like the Sioux, Iroquois, or Cherokee, etc.).

However, I don't think there would be enough civilizations to qualify for an expansion pack--I don't want to see "Civ-spam" to use the author's phrasing. The two I wanted to see in that didn't make it were Austria and the Hittites. And Austria is "kind of, sort of" related to the HRE, being that the HRE was essentially subordinate to the Austrian Habsburgs for how many centuries.

That being said, there is more than enough possibilities to qualify for a leader pack, giving many civs two or three leaders that are currently stuck with one. And giving T. Jefferson or T. Roosevelt a chance to lead America. :) I could probably name a dozen or more names off the top of my head that I would like to see made into leaders. Problem is, as pointed out before, the traits...I don't like the any leader/any trait option myself, so I'll be keeping that turned off, but there isn't much to work with for new traits, and so working in new leaders would be tough.

Note: I haven't voted on this poll yet; I'll discuss first before voting. :)
 
Poland's second place... Again.

quite happy about that.

@ Anti-logic, the ones that are leading the poll are generally the ones that should be in.
 
Assyrians, Austrians, Australia, Canada, Hittites, Huns/Goths (either would be cool), split the Native Americans into Iroquois and Sioux and either a Polynesian Civ or another SE Asian civ.

I don't want Poland in Civ ever thanks to the unnessecarily high amount of posts telling firaxis that Poland is the greatest thing on Earth (slight exaggeration).
 
@calgacus: a well done, robust poll! Quite an interesting list - well researched I think, because I see cultures that I have rarely heard of :cool:

Keeping in mind that Civ is a game of "what-if" history, my choices :) :

1) Assyrians and/or another Mesopotamian civ - to complete the early ancient history the "cradle of human civilization". However, some one posted a better idea, merging all the Mesopotamian civs together and have leader heads for Assyrian, Babylon, Sumeria. I think this is a clever idea specifically appropriate to these and a few other civs. :goodjob:
2) Huns and/or Goths and/or other ancient western "barbarian" civ - The Huns, Goths, Ostrogoths and Visigoths are genuinely important influences causing many dynamic changes in early western history; they weren't great builders of cities, but they seem very interesting to me - probably best used as AI only civs? The practicality of their inclusion remains an open question for me - indeed they are my last of the 9 choices.
3) Iroquois and/or Sioux and/or Anasazi and/or another native North American civ (now split) - yes! We don't need a lot of them, but having Iroquois published in Civ III set a precedent; lets see this fleshed out a bit to make things more interesting for North America! Did you know that the Apache and Navajo have apparent linguistic links to Tartar Chinese as opposed to the languages of their immediate neighbours? Chinese encounters with native Americans in 1421?. Perhaps pre-Columbian history of NA is more complex than most of us have been taught?
4) Israel (Hebrews) and/or Phoenicians and/or other Levantine civ - another important gap in human history that needs to be filled. There's no denying the historical influence of Levantine civs (birthplace of monothesism) and ancient Israel works for me.
5) Poland and/or Poland-Lithuania - I think that since we are now polling for secondary and lesser civs, Poland sits near the top and is a good representative of the eastern face of Europe.
6) Polynesia and/or individual Polynesian branch - I think it would be entertaining for Polynesia, represented by 3 or 4 LHs for distinct sub-groups, to be in game. What they lack in industrious settling and building they make up in cultural diversity and brave exploration of the vast Pacific ocean.
7) Scotland and/or Ireland and/or Gaels and/or other insular civ (e.g. Wales, Britons, Picts, etc) - a similar case to the mesopotamian civs, how about just more leader heads for the Celts who represent Welsh, Irish, Scotish, and other insular but notable factions of the British Isles and the neighbouring continent. Weren't the Gauls a celtic sub-group? Throw in a LH for that faction of Celts too.
8) Tibet - a quiet civ with a loooong history, they represent a western face of the asian world.
9) Other - Civilization is a game of history and as a game it definitely steers in the direction of fancy with 6050 year-old leaders and random maps, etc. Thus I think the occasional indulgence into mythology is appropriate: the pre-eminent civ of world mythology is Atlantis. If there was an option in game set-up to make Atlantis available in random or custom games, I'd love to see this mythological civ! Indeed having Atlantis in the game could trigger very special events including events that lead to it's disappearance. I think it can be cleverly done (I might make it a pet project for myself to make a mod)...
10) Maybe another XP's worth of civs should be added, but no more - While I think the game can handle one more expansion, we are teetering on the brink of spamland. At some point we will really have enough and more will only interest a tiny minority and simply won't sell at all.

IMHO the best way to deal with new civs is to assume some merging between some groups and have some lesser civs represented by various leader heads. For example the Celts are a huge group and could easily accommodate up to, say, eight different LHs covering representation of various sub-groups of Celts. Note that in Civ IV custom games, which are just as valid to play as purely random games, one can have multiples of a given civ - each one with a different LH - and the game runs fine. Boudicca and Brennus can both be in the same game leading different factions of Celts! Any civ with a choice of LHs can be played that way. Thus some lesser civs that have many things in common can be bundled into a bigger civ... Heck, a 2nd leader for the Dutch could be a Belgian, not perfect, but if capital city names are tied to LH, then there'll be more options to the way the game feels and plays and many lesser civs can be included without constructing whole minor civs with UUs, UBs, and all the artwork, etc which is liable to become rather repetative.

Anyhoo... lot's 'o' thoughts! :crazyeye: :cool: :D
 
I'd like to see them add as many Civilizations as possible. But I'd also like to see them keep a good spread of continents. The Americas, Africa, the Near East, and Asia all need attention, since Europe is so easy.
 
Heck, a 2nd leader for the Dutch could be a Belgian, not perfect, but if capital city names are tied to LH, then there'll be more options to the way the game feels and plays and many lesser civs can be included without constructing whole minor civs with UUs, UBs, and all the artwork, etc which is liable to become rather repetative.

The Dutch and Belgian are two different civilizations. You can't use Wilhelm II as a French leader.
 
I don't want Poland in Civ ever thanks to the unnessecarily high amount of posts telling firaxis that Poland is the greatest thing on Earth (slight exaggeration).

Yes, but it will stop ounce poland's in. :D

I think that since we are now polling for secondary and lesser civs, Poland sits near the top and is a good representative of the eastern face of Europe.

near the top? :lol: :joke:
 
The Dutch and Belgian are two different civilizations. You can't use Wilhelm II as a French leader.

Ah, well my thoughts are rough. I'm thinking about the Flemish side of Belgium that has Dutch speaking roots. So, my thinking is a Flemish LH (+ a major Flemish city keyed to it as the capital) as a 2nd choice to "lead" the Dutch. I guess by that logic a LH of Wallonia should be added to the French roster of LHs... It's an idea to illustrate the notion of using new LHs to work around having a full civ for everyone.

I know little about Belgium other than it is a young nation populated with a mix of Dutch (Flemish) and French (Walloons?) speaking peoples. Aside from day-to-day idioms is Flemish really that different from Dutch? Is the French spoken in Wallonia really that different from the French spoken in northern France? Doesn't Belgium have two official languages?

The closest I've been to Belgium was a visit to Maastricht (still in the Netherlands however). I noticed two things in Masstricht: a distinct dialect of Dutch (was that Flemish?), and the architecture was almost identical to the style built in Vieux Montreal, Quebec, Canada (a real surprise, of course Maastricht's the older city).

I don't meant to offend, if Belgium is not its own civ, are there not viable work-arounds? :) As a Canadian I have 3 alternate cultures to roughly "represent" Canada: England, France, or the North American Indians. It's crude but until Canada is in as a full civ (which isn't likely), those 3 are the closest to choose from. If Sir John A. MacDonold was added to the English LH roster, and maybe Sir Wilfred Laurier to the French LH roster, I'd have better choices in lieu of Canada being a whole civ in the game.

Just my wandering thoughts... ;)
 
Ah, well my thoughts are rough. I'm thinking about the Flemish side of Belgium that has Dutch speaking roots. So, my thinking is a Flemish LH (+ a major Flemish city keyed to it as the capital) as a 2nd choice to "lead" the Dutch. I guess by that logic a LH of Wallonia should be added to the French roster of LHs... It's an idea to illustrate the notion of using new LHs to work around having a full civ for everyone.

I know little about Belgium other than it is a young nation populated with a mix of Dutch (Flemish) and French (Walloons?) speaking peoples. Aside from day-to-day idioms is Flemish really that different from Dutch? Is the French spoken in Wallonia really that different from the French spoken in northern France? Doesn't Belgium have two official languages?

The closest I've been to Belgium was a visit to Maastricht (still in the Netherlands however). I noticed two things in Masstricht: a distinct dialect of Dutch (was that Flemish?), and the architecture was almost identical to the style built in Vieux Montreal, Quebec, Canada (a real surprise, of course Maastricht's the older city).

I don't meant to offend, if Belgium is not its own civ, are there not viable work-arounds? :) As a Canadian I have 3 alternate cultures to roughly "represent" Canada: England, France, or the North American Indians. It's crude but until Canada is in as a full civ (which isn't likely), those 3 are the closest to choose from. If Sir John A. MacDonold was added to the English LH roster, and maybe Sir Wilfred Laurier to the French LH roster, I'd have better choices in lieu of Canada being a whole civ in the game.

Just my wandering thoughts... ;)
Yes there is a big difference between Dutch and Flemish. I lived 25 years near the belgian border, just 20 km north of Maastricht. You heard probably the local dialect of the city, and I can't stand that sound (i even broke op a relationship because of it).

Belgium has 3 languages, also German in the eastern part of the country. I only visit Canada twice. once when I was 13 (Christmas '92) and in 2005 when my 2nd cousin married. I think If the US of A is a civ, Canada is certain a civ too.
 
I think we're very close to Civ-spam territory already. Frankly, most of the most important ones have been in the game since vanilla, anyway. Having too many civs that have faded away already and made little to no contributions that affect how we live today will detract from the epic feel of the game.

There are a few, like Hittites with iron working, that have made contributions that we still use today but I still think keeping the amount of civs manageable would be better from a gameplay perspective.
 
I voted:

Israel
Central African
Polynesian
Turkic (Khazars)
Vietnam
Maybe another XP's worth of civs should be added, but no more

I regret not saying:
Poland
Austria

I just didn't see Poland on the list (don't know how) and wasn't thinking about it and Austria didn't quite get me :(

So add 1 vote for Austria and Poland ;)
 
1. Bulgaria
2. Hungary
3. Iroquis
4. Moors (although we have Saladin and the Arabs but oh well, we have France, Germany, Rome, the Netherlands AND the Holy Roman Empire, why not moors)
5. Mapuche
 
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