New Commerce

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I think I might have come up with a solution on how religions should be founded, hero (ie. named) sorcerers should appear and a way of adding a whole new dimension to the game. All we need to do is to add a new form of commerce (like gold, science and culture) called Divination, or something else.

You will get a divination slider which you can adjust like the science or culture slider, a new 'magician' specialist which will add divination commerce and a whole lot of buildings which will increase your divination out put. What do you use divination points for?

Once a city (or an entire civ - haven't decided yet) reaches a certain level, you get a popup asking you what to do. You get the choice between founding a religion or getting a special sorcerer charater. If you choose to found a religion you will either discover your 'special' religion, or if you already have it, an other generic religion. If you choose to get a super sorcerer then you get a new unit which will be similar to a Great General (can become a specialist and generate more divination points, can build a lab where spell books will be written, or can become a very high level wizard). Other special characters that are not wizards should probably appear like warlords.

This will also make us one of the first mods to add a new type of commerce! This will help to differentiate ourselves with vanilla warlords and with other mods, while adding a lot of fantasy flavour to the mod.

Good idea?


EDIT:
W00t !!!! 2000 posts!!!!!!
:band: :band: :band:
:cheers: :cheers:
:banana::banana::banana::banana::banana::banana:
 
thats a good idea. i like it. perhaps we could call it "Favour" as in Favour of the gods?

i think that if this could be easily implemented (which i guess it could because our lead programmer suggested it ;) ) it would solve heaps of issues.
 
I'm not sure about this. At first it sounds a nice idea but I fear it can again nivelate diversity of religion in this mod.
In general I dislike the idea to directly link it to magic. I.e. Religion and Magic are directly opposed to each other concerning the empire. It might go well with orcs and chaoscults tzeentch, slaanesh, nurgle but again not with Khorne allthough we could get around this by giving non magical special units. What about civs NOT drawn much to religious believes won't they have serious disadvantages?

However I mentioned this already but I'll bump this again to give some idea how complex religion can be handled in civ and imo should be no less for this mod(edit: ok maybe just a little less but please have a read before you answer):
Spoiler :
OVERVIEW: Mod incorporates all real-world religions with more than a million members. Each religion is set up independently with its own unique traits and set of buildings. Spread of a religion can convert/eliminate other religions.

Now WARLORDS compatible!

View the revised tech tree: EWR-TechTree.pdf
View the information about each religion: EWR-Religions.pdf

Download the latest version of Eusebius World Religions for Warlords

Download Eusebius World Religions version 0.12 for vanilla Civ IV (1.61 patch)

Project Status
 Fixed the bugs reported on the forum. Thanks all!
 Adjusted the spread of religions early in the game (and fixed a bug in that code). Now all cities in the same civilization are considered “connected” to each other. I noticed that after I found Confucianism that it started spreading to other civs before my own cities.
 Has nothing to do with religion, but I added the Fort Zone of Control mod. (1.) I wanted it in my test games . (2.) It shouldn’t trouble anyone since it is turned off by default—see the detailed INI file. (3.) It got me the code for reading INI files which I think I will eventually want.

Happy CIVing,
Eusebius

* August 27, 2006: Releasing v0.21. I apologize for all the bugs in 0.20—I seem to have found most of them before you all did (whew!). Spent most of the weekend relaxing and playing a game with my own mod, which allowed me to do a lot of testing and fixing. I think this is stable enough to call beta at this point. Fixes include…
 Found that bug reported way back where single-civ religions spread to other civs.
 Added a popup acknowledgement to the ALT-E command to dump religion infos to the log.
 Arranged for a popup whenever an exception occurred so I always know about them right when they happen.
 I think I finally licked my problem with variables not being initialized some of the time—added some event handlers to do this.
 Incorporated repaired font files contributed by Roamty. Thanks!
 Since I used some other code that was covered under the GNU public license, the whole mod now is too. See ‘copying.txt’. (Maybe we should add Richard Stallman as a great scientist?)
* August 24: Version 0.20 Warlords conversion & converted events handlers to DrEJib’s model. Versions from now on will only work with Warlords.
* August 11: Version 0.12. Fixed problems reported with Holy City not being created and some other bugs. Unable to reproduce spread of Hinduism beyond home culture (without missionaries or Free Religion). Feature: Pressing ALT-E will dump a log of all the religion information in the game to the debug log.
* July 30: Version 0.11 update. Fixed the problem reported by Cosmic Fool; all the icons should work now. Also tuned the parameters of religion spread and conversion. I think it is significantly improved.
* July 23, 2006: Version 0.10. I’m finally going to stop tinkering and put out an alpha version (0.1) I’m getting pretty happy with the code at this point. The great prophet flow seems about right and religions tend to appear roughly the time they should in my test games. I am hoping for some feedback on the parameters of the mod: “Do religions spread about the right rate?” “Do they convert each other often enough/too often?”, etc.



Eusebius World Religions


If You Get an Exception Popup
Please e-mail me your saved game and the log file Pythonerr2.log along with any relevant information.

B]User Interface Changes[/b]
The main city screen now only shows religions actually present in the city. The religion screen only shows religions that you can convert to.

Civic Changes
Changed the name of ‘Paganism’ to ‘Animism’—no functional change. ‘Police State’ only gives a bonus to military unit production if the state religion is present in the city. ‘Theocracy’ does prevent the normal spread of religions, but it does not prevent missionary activity or the spread of worldviews.

Quick Overview of Religion Technologies
Divine Appeasement ------à Ordained Social Order à Universalism
\
\-----------à Divine Patronage à Ordained Government à Prophet-King

{No religious tech assumes an animism where you are completely at the mercy of spirits with no control over what happens to you.}

Divine Appeasement: Can appease the gods with sacrifices made in temples by priests. Generic ‘pagan’ Temple not associated with any specific religion. Gain access to civic Slavery. This is the perquisite for the other religious technologies; it requires Masonry and Mysticism.

Divine Patronage: God(s) is actually on your side. Gain access to Theocracy civic. (Think: religion supports government.)

Ordained Government: God(s) sponsors your government which works closely with your religious hierarchy. Gain access to civic Organized
Religion. (Think: government supports religion.)

Prophet-King: Your political leader speaks God’s word. Gain access to civic Police State. (Think: Government and religion are synonymous.)

Ordained Social Order: God(s) defines the social classes in your culture. Gain access to civic Caste System. First to discover founds Hinduism.

Universalism: God(s) have a plan for working out the salvation/enlightenment of everyone in the world. Gain access to civic Pacifism.

Worldviews
I am implementing three Worldviews which are kind of like religions, but act somewhat differently. They are Hellenism (representing individualistic, Western thought), MesoAmericanism (representing all native American thought) and Confucianism (representing eastern thought). These do not so much represent religious beliefs as basic ways of looking at things. For example, Europeans who came to North and South America had very different views of what it meant to own/use land than did the native peoples who were already here. A given city can only ever possess one worldview; they are mutually exclusive. The worldview makes the spread of different religions to that city either easier or harder. I kind of feel bad for leaving out an African worldview, but it seems to me that theirs is the default value before there is any religion—an animistic valuing of the world where everything is considered to be alive.

Hidden Diplomacy
Several factors, including similarities and differences in worldview can affect your diplomatic standing with other civs. Possessing "The Papacy" improves your standing with Christians and Catholics. Possessing "The Shrine of Imam Reza" worsens your standing with Islamic (Sunni) nations because you have founded Shia.
BUG: These diplomatic factors are implemented with AI_setAttitudeExtra. This means that if you incorporate this mod into another mod that uses this function, your changes from your other mod or scenario will probably get wiped out. Moreover, changes wrought by this function will not show up in the tally that explains why a civ likes/dislikes you—but they are there nonetheless.
Founding Religions
I am dissatisfied with the default Civ IV method of founding a religion based on a technology and then having a great prophet build a shrine. Religions seem to get founded in a lot of ways and this mod reflects that. Ancient religions seem to spring up out of a culture and largely stay within that culture. Two modern examples survive: Hinduism and Shintoism. In this mod, they are founded automatically under certain conditions.
Classical religions generally have a nameable founder and are more likely to spread beyond their home culture (civilization) through missionary activity. In this mod, they require a Great Prophet and a perquisite technology to be founded. Some religions (including the WorldViews) are founded upon construction of a wonder.

Different Ways for Religions to Spread

* Settlers bring it with them. (Settlers will have religion randomly selected from all those in their city—equal chance of having "no religion" too)
* Brought by conquest—state religion of conqueror spreads to city.
* Brought by peaceful missionary activity--most effective when religion arises out of another religion. Note that not all religions have missionaries!

The Religions are Different
There are three sets of Commerces (coin, beaker, culture) associated with each religion. One is for all cities with the religion; one is for just the holy city; one is for cities with the religion when that religion is your state religion. In Civ IV, these are all the same. In this mod, they are all different. Also, not all religions have each type of religious building (temple, monastery, cathedral, shrine). Check the tables at the end of this document for details for each religion.

When the religion encounters another religion, what happens?

1. Hostility. {Give high bonus to state religion culture}
2. Competition/Coexistence. {default}
3. Religion adapts itself to new religion (Syncretism). {Give high bonus to global culture}

Is the religion ethno-centric? (Is religion exclusively centered in a particular ethnic group?)
If so, we will inhibit its ability to expand beyond one civilization in the game, but give a bonus to the cultural output of its buildings.

The religion food-chain
Many, many religions arise out of other religions and make their initial set of converts out of that successor religion. In this mod, religious buildings of successor religions will sometimes convert to the new religion. The chain looks something like this…

Generic Pagan Temple will convert to most anything

Hinduism à Jainism
à Sikhism

Judaism à Christianity à Modern Catholicism
à Protestantism
à Islam (may be founded if Judaism or Christianity is present in city)

Shinto à Tenrikyo

Confucianism à Taoism

Stand-alones: Zoroastrianism, Cao Dai, Buddhism, Secularism, Bahai
(If you have never heard of some of these religions, remember that the great god, "Google", knows all.)

NOTE: When a city is conquered, the state religion of the new owner may destroy existing religious buildings. For example, Islam and Judaism tend to take a dim view of polytheistic religions and their idols. If, through conversion and/or conquest, a city ceases to have any buildings of a particular religion, then that religion ceases to have any influence in that city.

Concerning Atheism: This topic has generated a lot of interest in a lot of threads (which still amazes me). I finally settled on a generic ‘Secularism’ which is an amalgam of Marxism, secular humanism and Juche. On the religion food chain, secularism can convert temples back to pagan temples and destroy monasteries.

Concerning NeoPaganism: Most figures give this religion less than the requisite number of a million followers. They also don’t generally have buildings, so I don’t know how well making this "religion" would work out in game terms. I think that the combination of the civics Environmentalism and Freedom of Religion represents this group adequately.

Changes to Existing Buildings

* Obelisk gives a +1 to generate Great Prophet
* Pyramid does what Parthenon used to do.
* Parthenon does what Pyramid used to do. It also founds Hellenism.
* Oracle gives a free great prophet instead of a free technology.
* Chichen Itza allows Environmentalism instead of giving the defensive bonus. It also founds MesoAmericanism.
* Forbidden Palace does what Versailles used to do. It also founds Confucianism.
* East India Company does what Forbidden Palace used to do.

Credits:
My thanks go to all the people contributing to CivFanatics.com. I never would have figured out some of this stuff without the rich resources of the forums and other people’s modes to draw from. Pieces of the following Mods are included in this one…

*
* Classical Religion by Fenceman
* Settler Religion by Bhruic
* Shinto Mod by Dual
* True Prophets Tom "Kidinnu" Hudson

Of these, I need to give a special tribute to Kidinnu. This project really started out as a mod of his mod. By this time, there isn’t much of his original code left, but his mechanism of founding religions via buildings is brilliantly flexible and his clean code helped me learn Python. Thanks Kidinnu


Ok I know the part about food makes no sense for WH i.e. also some other features possibly not but to be true I'm just waiting for this mod being cleaned of it's glitches to start religiondesign based on it's mechanics.
 
well, that is a good point ploe. perhaps we could make 2 new commerces, one for religeous civs and one for magical civs. call the religeous one "favour" and the magical one "power" or something? or is that going over the top?
 
Psychic_Llamas said:
well, that is a good point ploe. perhaps we could make 2 new commerces, one for religeous civs and one for magical civs. call the religeous one "favour" and the magical one "power" or something? or is that going over the top?
I'm not sure you got my point. Did you read the spoiler?

Edit: You also should have at least a look at the pdf!
 
Psychic_Llamas said:
:blush: well... i skimmed it... and im knd of lost on your point also, i thought i got it, nbut obviously not :blush:
Ok please have a little read first. It's kind of pointless discussing this if the whole thing is just skimmed:p

Edit: I thing this mod includes alot of stuff quite adaptable to WH-World or could at least inspire us.

I.e. this:

"When the religion encounters another religion, what happens?

1. Hostility. {Give high bonus to state religion culture}
2. Competition/Coexistence. {default}
3. Religion adapts itself to new religion (Syncretism). {Give high bonus to global culture}"

Dwarves-Elves->hostility
elves-oldones->syncretism
dwarves-Sigmarism->coexistence etc.

different ways of founding Religions(some adapted others just inspired):
Sigmarism-Great Person(Sigmar-if he dies:D)
old ones-building could be a building/wonder like mark of the old ones
orcs could be founded by number of units reached
etc.

Just pointing at possible ideas here if you think oldones is better founded with tech ok. I just think we should handle religions individually and be radical about it.
 
:lol: i read it but im still lost as to what your orriginal point was. sorry :p but dont worry about it. i think the new commerce idea is good, but perhaps not for religeons and magic. we should hold onto it just incase :p

but asside from that, i agree with you that there is heaps of stuff in that mod that we can adopt.
 
The point is. If we use a new commerce(only) religions will all quite work the same. Instead of "reseaching" a tech you will "research" a special unit or a religion i.e. The only action the player does is regulating the slider to get it. Of course the outcome might be more interesting now with Olleus' idea since the player gets more options what he can do with the pointpool after it reached a certain limit instead of choosing before for what he want to put his effort in - to make it clearerI don't dislike that totally those popups n stuff- on the contrary but I think if we can do more different ways to found a religion it will involve more diversity in playeractions as well and diverse tactics more imo.
 
The question is how and more important why. I think what problem we have now is still not having the design for religion settled. We didn't even decide yet what religions we want and what not nor did we decide what they should do exactly. It's simply too early to hardcode anything about them right now. Let's please get back to that before we discuss what mechanics we use. It might be useful to have a new commerce afterwards or it might not...but it's good to know some options we can eventually take.

btw just noticed your sig-we didn't revamp any religion nor civic either yet;)
 
How about using this system for magic alone?

Do religion the way ploe sugested (although it screams AI incompetence) and change the commerce idea to be magic only. You would get a choice between spell books and super sorcers. Maybe even add a new screen instead of having a popup?
 
I could be befriended to an idea of a "winds of magic" commerce much more indeed;)
About the AI we'll see. As I said I want to wait a little more for Eusebius Mod developing but I already can say it comes to religions founded there already! I'm not sure I can say the same for Warhammer currently...:mischief:
 
How about using this new commerce as a paralle science. It has a magic tree instead of a tech tree and you learn magical skills instead of technologies. That way we could remove the bottom half of the tech tree and put it in the magic tree instead. A lot of work but probably worth it.
 
Lord Olleus said:
How about using this new commerce as a paralle science. It has a magic tree instead of a tech tree and you learn magical skills instead of technologies. That way we could remove the bottom half of the tech tree and put it in the magic tree instead. A lot of work but probably worth it.

I support this idea as well. Would clean up the techtree significantly.
 
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