(New Player Questions) General / Calabim Game

[DigSen]

So, I basically bought Civ 4 in order to play FFH. I played a few vanilla games to get a feel for the basic mechanics, did pretty well, and then dove into my first game of FFH. After perusing a bunch of old posts it sounded like Calabim were a good place to start (special thanks to everyone that posted suggestions in the Top Ten Tips for Your Favorite Civ thread).

I'd say it's going pretty well - it's turn 350-something, my score is more than double that of the next-highest civ (Luchuirp), and I just absorbed the entire Khazad empire before pausing to curbstomp Acheron with Losha Valas and a stack of Vamps. But I'm nagged by the feeling that there's a lot I could be doing better.

Some easy questions, to start:

*How does one get access to the mana of conquered civs? (I gather that it involves vassalizing them, but I didn't see the option anywhere in the diplomacy screen.)

*Is Caste System a better choice for mid- to late-game than Slavery? (I kind of miss the option to whip, but I have gold pouring out of my pointy vampire ears at this point.)

*Would dropping Council of Esus for the recently-founded Order be a good move? (I'd lose Gibbon Goetia, but would I lose Nox Noctis, too?)

and finally,
*If I stick with the Council of Esus, how do I get other people on the Undercouncil so I can actually pass some of those cool-sounding resolutions? (I've spread the religion across the entire goshdarn world, but no one else seems to dig it.)

 

[Aline]

Hi and welcome to the madness.

1. Mana should be tradeable like every other resorce, via the diplo screen, vasalling them is a good idea.

2. Yes!!

3. It depends, Essus is probly the weakest of all religions, the only good thing is Nox Noctis and the erly archmage, you do not need the state religion in order to keep the shrines effect and the archmage aint that special anymore later in the game.
Im not to sure if i would go Order with Vamps though since you cannot gift vampirisem to Sphener, something you can do to Gibbo.

4. Essus has nothign to do with undercouncil, its a civic, you can try asking them to change(or make them) but they need to be either evil or neutral.

 

[DigSen]

Thanks!

4. Esus has nothign to do with undercouncil, its a civic, you can try asking them to change(or make them) but they need to be either evil or neutral.

And it should be an option somewhere in the Diplomacy screen, right? Like, under "Civics" I should be able to select "Undercouncil" to get them to switch over to it? I'm pretty sure nothing's showing up for me there, but I'll go back and double-check.

 

[Aline]

They also need the deception tech, if they dont have it they cant switch.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

An AI player's resources will not show up in the diplomacy screen unless it either has multiple sources of the resource, or is your vassal. You cannot demand the mana granted from an AI player's palace before or during the negotiation to make it your vassal. Right after accepting capitulation or voluntary vassalage you can demand the resources, but keep in mind that if the AI refuses it counts as if you declared war on it.


For me the choice between Slavery and Caste System does not have much to do with how late in the game it is, but rather how high the Armaggeddon Counter has risen. When the AC first hits 30 it triggers the Blight event, which causes massive unhealthiness based on the city population and the health granted from buildings. Whenever I see the AC approaching this point I like to population rush as much as I can, with a special emphasis on the buildings that grant health or store food. If your cities are huge when blight hits the unhealthiness can cause the cities to shrink all the way down to size 1 and reduce their production as all the citizens are focusing on providing food in an attempt to maintain population. If you kill off most of the population in time then you can go on unaffected by blight and take advantage of the fact that your rivals are suffering. I almost never abandon Slavery until after using it to escape the Blight.



In vanilla FfH, the Council of Esus does not have a whole lot going for it as a state religion. (In the unreleased version of my modmod that I've been playing recently it is quite nice.) There are a couple of benefits others have not yet mentioned though, First, you must have the state religion as well as Nox Noctis in order to be able to see the line of sight of all cities where the Council of Esus in present. Second, the Council of Esus state religion makes sneak attacks easier as you can move an army into position right next to you enemy cities using an open boarders agreement and then declare war without your troops being ejected from their territory. It is the only state religion that does not give a diplomatic penalty with those who have other state religions.


The Council of Esus has a little to do with the Undercouncil, but is not essential. The council can vote to give everyone a Nigthwatch, which can spread the religion. Gibbom Goetia does give you an extra vote on the council, making its decisions easier to control. The technology that founds the religion is required for the council. There is however no requirement to have the state religion in order to be active in the Undercouncil.



Good-aligned civs cannot join or remain in the Undercouncil. (Neither can evil civs be part of the Overcouncil. Neutral civs can be part of either council.) If most of the other civs are good, then before asking them to join the Undercouncil you must convince them to change their alignment by adopting the Council of Esus or Octopus Overlords to change their alignment to Neutral or The Ashen Veil to change their alignment to Evil. Also keep in mind that they cannot change religions or civics while in anarchy or if they have made another such change too recently.


If you convert to The Order then your alignment will change to good, and your membership civic will change from Undercouncil to No Membership. Adopting The Runes of Kilmorph or The Empyrean (which is of course wildly inappropriate according to lore) will change your alignment from evil to neutral and not change your Undercouncil membership.

 

[Horatius]

"In vanilla FfH, the Council of Esus does not have a whole lot going for it as a state religion".

Why no more love for this religion?
It doesn't help you economically in an immediate and direct way (but the shrine can easily be profitable), it doesn't give you a unit that immediately kicks ass as Chalid but - it's good for late game defense and the harassment game against the AI.

It simply suits a particular style of play that you can have fun with especially with the Svartalfar and Sidar, Amelchier, but also others.
It needs a little work.

With Bowyers and Esus spread to your cities you can build the Nightwatch in all of them without an archery range. They are not only good defensive units with poison for a big empire in the late game but since they start with hidden nationality you can be creative with them.
If you are raiders why not use them to pillage while at peace. You don't want to pillage (why don't you want to pillage?)? Transform them also into hidden nationality assassins and have fun entertaining the AI that is plotting against you while you achieve that building victory.

Ok, so you want a conquest victory. How about this scenario? You're playing diety and the mercurians are starting to get too big (that's a big no on diety). That big stack of fanatic Angels are busy conquering someone else but you know they will be coming after you in no time.
Place the necessary troops close to the mercurian cities. Declare war. Watch Basium cry while 150 angels were somewhere else.

Impersonate leader has also made me win games on diety that otherwise I would not have won, even if it screws up your empire as well.

Four Shadowriders. Four.
Upgrade them from good units and work to have several shadow mana for affinity.
Now off you go and teach the fanatic Order a lesson.

 

[Aline]

And this thread is now another Essus strategy/discussion thread. ^^
Well while we are at it i would like to add the Bals/Essus strategy i go for, the main deal is the very early archmage, with Keelyn you can cast two dominations a turn and thus gain a decent army without haveing to build stuff.

 

[Horatius]

I was just point out stuff to DigSen. I think Esus is a fun religion. That's all.

 

[DigSen]

No, no, I appreciate it. Especially helpful to hear some positives of the CoE, since most people just say that it's weak and leave it at that. In particular, the Nox Noctis instant-intel-on-CoE-cities seems like it should be pretty powerful, all by itself.

What do you recommend as good units to upgrade into Shadowriders?

Magister: Thanks for the heads-up on the Blight. I'm currently at AC 27 and was just about to start steamrolling Luchuirp, so... it might have caught me by surprise. Almost all of my cities already have impressive health and food (since you can never tell when you might need a quick Feast) - is there anything else I can do to prepare for it? Would munching my big cities down be a valid alternative to whipping?

And I've gone back and checked - Cassiel, of the Grigori, definitely has Deception. He's Neutral. But in the Diplomacy screen's category of "civics you should switch to," all I get are Aristocracy, Consumption, Caste System. Potentially bugged? Something unique to Cassiel? (All the other leaders are either Good or too dumb to understand Deception.)

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Ah, yes, I forgot that you said you were playing as the Calabim. That makes Slavery less important, especially if your cities already have all the health generating buildings. Feasting to reduce population works just as well.




Cassiel has deception? That's strange. I haven't played vanilla FfH in a while, but I could have sworn that his Agnostic Trait would make it impossible for him to research that technology, or gain it in trade. The only way (short of worldbuilder) I can think of for him to have gotten it is by forming a permanent alliance with a non-agnostic civ that researched it. If he has a permanent alliance he might be inclined to take the same membership civic as the ally, but I'm not sure. If the rest of the world is good then I suspect that the Overcouncil is more popular. Does Cassiel have No Membership, or Overcouncil membership? If Cassiel also has the Honor technology then someone has probably asked him to join your rival council, and he may have adopted it recently enough that he cannot change yet.

 

[DigSen]

Cassiel has deception? That's strange.

*blush* I may have messed up here. Because I can't offer Deception to Cassiel in trade, I assumed he already had it. But if he really just cannot learn it, period, well, that pretty much explains why I'm alone on the Undercouncil - my AI allies/opponents are either too underdeveloped, or strictly barred from it. Is there a better way to discern "techs my opponent has" vs. "techs my opponent will accept from me in trade"?

I shall conduct an experiment by giving Deception to Keelyn (even though she is my closest competitor)*.


*I'm pretty sure I can still crush her if need be.

 

[Horatius]

No, no, I appreciate it. Especially helpful to hear some positives of the CoE, since most people just say that it's weak and leave it at that. In particular, the Nox Noctis instant-intel-on-CoE-cities seems like it should be pretty powerful, all by itself.

What do you recommend as good units to upgrade into Shadowriders?

Shadowriders can be upgraded from Nightwatches. How good your shadowriders will be depends of the quantity of shadow man that you have. They can easily be better than Paladins or Knights.

 

[DigSen]

Shadowriders can be upgraded from Nightwatches. How good your shadowriders will be depends of the quantity of shadow man that you have. They can easily be better than Paladins or Knights.

Is there a good way to get some experience for the Nightwatch, though? They seem better suited to playing defense than offense. Maybe it's just too late in the game that I'm playing right now (or maybe they're just overshadowed by my hordes of Vampires). Secondary question: are there promotions that the Nightwatch should focus on if I'm going to upgrade them into Shadowriders?

Unrelated question: Something weird happened recently when I was attacking a Goblin Fort with a pair of Vampires - four of the defending Archers left the city and wound up in my square. I assume this is because I sent Specters in first - their fear effect scared the Archers into a random(?) square, and it just happened to be the one my Vamps were in. Is this correct, or was this some sort of weird glitch?

 

[Azhral]

I'd put Shadowriders as one of the best units in the game, easy.

Gibbon being the earliest Archmage you can get (by far), as well as having illusion, is also ridiculously powerful. One recent game I had the Balseraphs invade with about 70 archers, swordsmen and freaks. A few fireballs from my golems and mages weakened the stack a little, but eventually they threw themselves against the city. I thought I was done for, but Gibbons single earth elemental killed every last one of them.

And to clarify MC, Gibbon does NOT give you an extra vote in the undercouncil in vanilla. Maybe he should have, but currently doesn't. Anyways, I've changed that at home so he gives an extra vote in both the Under and Overcouncils. I also gave Alazkan an extra vote in the Undercouncil, but that also gives his black-mirror Doppleganger a vote, which is a bug, but no idea on how to fix that. I just ended up removing it.

Anyways, CoE is the only religion where one can wage a war without waging a war. HN Shadowriders, Nightwatch and CoE following Recon units (so all Shadows), as well as Mistforms can cause a huge amount of headache for your enemies, and there isn't much they can do about it without ruining their reputation and declaring war. And even if they do your well-prepared actual stacks sitting next to all their cities and on all their important resources won't get kicked out of their borders. Having CoE in all your enemies cities also means you can see exactly what they are doing, and they can't stop any of it (in your territory at least) because you have Nox Noctis.

Damn, that sounds awesome. Gonna have to give that a go with the Svalts, whom I haven't played much of anyways.

 

[Pickly]

Unrelated question: Something weird happened recently when I was attacking a Goblin Fort with a pair of Vampires - four of the defending Archers left the city and wound up in my square. I assume this is because I sent Specters in first - their fear effect scared the Archers into a random(?) square, and it just happened to be the one my Vamps were in. Is this correct, or was this some sort of weird glitch?

If the units are stealthy in some way (Which would occur if you have Nox Noctis and this took place in your territory), enemy units can move onto the square. The fear effect, as you've guessed, s probably what did it.

 

[Horatius]

Is there a good way to get some experience for the Nightwatch, though? They seem better suited to playing defense than offense. Maybe it's just too late in the game that I'm playing right now (or maybe they're just overshadowed by my hordes of Vampires). Secondary question: are there promotions that the Nightwatch should focus on if I'm going to upgrade them into Shadowriders?

They are better suited to play defense than offense for sure, and vampires should be better Don't forget that nightwatchers can get both Iron and flaming arrows to increase their strength.
A thing that I do if I'm raiders is create a group of them and just go and pillage somebody during peace. The AI will try to get rid of those units and you can get experience that way by playing defense inside their borders.
But really, just being fortified inside your cities with hidden nationality will simulate attacks from AIs with which you have open borders with. If they are close by and have horses, you can expect a lot of suicides.

Regarding promotions, I would try to get them drill up to blitz and that's because horses with high movement like shadowriders will be able to attack several times per turn with blitz and then get the other promotions, flanking and combat, relatively fast.

If you're already way advanced in the game, just build the shadowriders and start by giving them flanking promotions.

Unrelated question: Something weird happened recently when I was attacking a Goblin Fort with a pair of Vampires - four of the defending Archers left the city and wound up in my square. I assume this is because I sent Specters in first - their fear effect scared the Archers into a random(?) square, and it just happened to be the one my Vamps were in. Is this correct, or was this some sort of weird glitch?

I'm betting that this happened inside your borders. You have Nox Noctis, your units are invisible and so the units that can´t see you can end up in the same square as the one your units are in.

 

[deanej]

Cassiel has deception? That's strange. I haven't played vanilla FfH in a while, but I could have sworn that his Agnostic Trait would make it impossible for him to research that technology, or gain it in trade. The only way (short of worldbuilder) I can think of for him to have gotten it is by forming a permanent alliance with a non-agnostic civ that researched it. If he has a permanent alliance he might be inclined to take the same membership civic as the ally, but I'm not sure. If the rest of the world is good then I suspect that the Overcouncil is more popular. Does Cassiel have No Membership, or Overcouncil membership? If Cassiel also has the Honor technology then someone has probably asked him to join your rival council, and he may have adopted it recently enough that he cannot change yet.

I believe Cassiel can get deception through the Eyes and Ears Network.

 

[UncleJJ]

*Would dropping Council of Esus for the recently-founded Order be a good move? (I'd lose Gibbon Goetia, but would I lose Nox Noctis, too?)

I'll try to answer just this part of your post.

I find the Order is one of the best religions to use with the Calabim although it might not be worth changing for you now if you are so close to winning.

Order priests give the Bless spell that adds +1 Holy for one combat. That helps the ordinary vamps that have good promotions but who, even with iron weapons, are weaker than ordinary champions. Bless helps all the living troops in your army, especially the weaker ones.

The Order temple gives +10% production of military units and if you use a priest to make the temple there is a 75% chance to get a free Crusader, so it's a good religion for military production.

Calabim often have a problem with maintenace costs in their big cities, especially if running Aristocracy rather than the City States civic. The Basilica gives a very useful -40% on maintenance that combines with the -20% from the Govenor's manor.

Order turns the civ good and allows 4 vamps to be upgraded to Paladins if Righteousness has been researched. These are some of the best troops in the game and probably the best type of paladin available. I'd say they are just as good as Shadowriders if you don't need the Hidden Nationality. The base strength of 11 plus 3 holy makes them very formidable troops when combined with the large number of promotions gained from Feasting. They retain the vampire's ability to cast body and death spells.

Righteousness is also needed to allow Sphener to be built. He is an angel and so can't gain Vampirism but as a hero he gains promotions fast enough. He's probably of most use for his instant heal spell for the whole stack although he's also a formidable fighter once he's gained a few promotions.

So Order is a great religion for the Calabim.