Jouda
.
sarcastinator said:
Great idea! The in-game bilateral deals just suck.
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New resource system, unit attrition and more
- Thread starter NikG
- Start date
Great idea! The in-game bilateral deals just suck.
I like this idea in general but think you can go one step further by adding a resource/supply component to units in pre-modern ages. Napoleon Bonaparte stated that an “army marches on its stomach”. I think you can easily simulate that with your Fuel Reserve system. Instead of fuel (you call it oil but I prefer the term fuel) you have food stores.
If you use the food store some units namely the Scout and Explorer would have to be tweaked. To do this I would add new promotions. Units with the promotion "Self-Sufficient I" do not need to be supplied. Self-Sufficient II allows the Scout and Explorer to supply food for one non-mechanized unit in that stack.
I also as your 1st post states think you need some kind of line of supply or supply transport network.
-NetNomad
If you use the food store some units namely the Scout and Explorer would have to be tweaked. To do this I would add new promotions. Units with the promotion "Self-Sufficient I" do not need to be supplied. Self-Sufficient II allows the Scout and Explorer to supply food for one non-mechanized unit in that stack.
I also as your 1st post states think you need some kind of line of supply or supply transport network.
-NetNomad
Maniac
Apolyton Sage
NikG said:
Unit capacity could also be used to reflect how far ships can sail out of ports into the unkwown, thus limiting exploration. The capacity could increase as your technology progresses.
dh_epic
Cold War Veteran
I think it would be smarter to take baby steps. Absolute realism is a nice goal, but it might not be fun, and might take way more effort to balance for gameplay than it's worth.
The best way to simulate resource scarcity, IMO, is to allow each resource of oil to support X number of units/buildings. Kind of like how farms in a game like warcraft don't generate food, but give you the ability to support X additional units.
It might not have the ideal amount of realism, but it wouldn't lead to excessive amounts of micromanagement (hmm, how can I save just 6 more oil points?), and wouldn't require a serious overhaul of the AI (what the heck is an oil treasury?) or the game balance.
The best way to simulate resource scarcity, IMO, is to allow each resource of oil to support X number of units/buildings. Kind of like how farms in a game like warcraft don't generate food, but give you the ability to support X additional units.
It might not have the ideal amount of realism, but it wouldn't lead to excessive amounts of micromanagement (hmm, how can I save just 6 more oil points?), and wouldn't require a serious overhaul of the AI (what the heck is an oil treasury?) or the game balance.
Aussie_Lurker
Deity
You see, not to be biased, but that is why I like my system so much. It balances Real with Abstract-whilst at the same time not forcing players to become accountants (so long as the interface is user-friendly enough). Just a quick check of a 'Resources' Screen and you can see what Resources you have and don't have-and which of them are scarce or abundant. A similar mechanism could be used for what resources a foreign power has-both how much and how abundant.
Now, all I have to figure out is how to code it!!!
Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.
Now, all I have to figure out is how to code it!!!
Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.
I really like this idea when it comes to supply lines :
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=166898
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=166898
dh_epic
Cold War Veteran
Aussie, I replied off the first page of the thread and missed your suggestion. Reading it over, I like some aspects of it -- like the fact that not all resource tiles are created equal. But when you start playing with percentages and fuzzy math, you start to get into unneeded complexity, IMO. (Especially in the case of a % chance of a resource disappearing, players absolutely HATE that kind of risk -- I know we can't stop people from reloading their game after every little thing, but if someone's oil spontaneously dried up you can damn well bet they'd reload until their luck turned around.)
I once read that the game of Civilization is a series of simple systems that interact to make a complex game. Food is simple: tiles generate food, once you hit a threshold you grow. Research is simple: trade is generated in cities, some of which is converted to beakers, and once you hit a threshold you discover a new tech. These are things you can sum up in one or two LINES, forget paragraphs. This makes them extremely easy to implement, and understand, and make game balance less cumbersome (which can take months for one small thing, trust me).
I think straight up hard limits would be better. You DO get this two line summary: each resource tile increases the number of units and buildings you can maintain at that time.
E.G.: I have one tile of iron which increases my Iron Capacity to 20. A swordsman requires 1 iron, meaning that you can support 20 Swordsmen. I have an oil tile that increases my Oil Capacity to 25. Tankers require 1 oil. ... but there's no reason you couldn't extend this to factories (factories require oil), or even population in the modern era (2 cars for 4 people!). It all depends on the gameplay you want to create.
In that sense, it's like 'gold upkeep', except the 'per turn' is implicit. It's extremely easy to implement and understand, and way more balancable without too many complex hidden equations. It's pretty much one line of code! (One line per resource, I suppose...)
You can still have stuff like an open market for your surplus, and it would be much easier to implement too. If I'm running the free market civic, and I'm using only 20 out of 25 of my Oil Capacity, the last 5 would be available for purchase at a rate automatically determined by the total global surplus. (Definitely not under Mercantilism. State Property -- well, you would have manual control over who you sell to. And this could finally make for an interesting environmentalism civic -- "resources are twice as efficient" for example.)
I once read that the game of Civilization is a series of simple systems that interact to make a complex game. Food is simple: tiles generate food, once you hit a threshold you grow. Research is simple: trade is generated in cities, some of which is converted to beakers, and once you hit a threshold you discover a new tech. These are things you can sum up in one or two LINES, forget paragraphs. This makes them extremely easy to implement, and understand, and make game balance less cumbersome (which can take months for one small thing, trust me).
Chris Crawford on Game Design said:
I think straight up hard limits would be better. You DO get this two line summary: each resource tile increases the number of units and buildings you can maintain at that time.
E.G.: I have one tile of iron which increases my Iron Capacity to 20. A swordsman requires 1 iron, meaning that you can support 20 Swordsmen. I have an oil tile that increases my Oil Capacity to 25. Tankers require 1 oil. ... but there's no reason you couldn't extend this to factories (factories require oil), or even population in the modern era (2 cars for 4 people!). It all depends on the gameplay you want to create.
In that sense, it's like 'gold upkeep', except the 'per turn' is implicit. It's extremely easy to implement and understand, and way more balancable without too many complex hidden equations. It's pretty much one line of code! (One line per resource, I suppose...)
You can still have stuff like an open market for your surplus, and it would be much easier to implement too. If I'm running the free market civic, and I'm using only 20 out of 25 of my Oil Capacity, the last 5 would be available for purchase at a rate automatically determined by the total global surplus. (Definitely not under Mercantilism. State Property -- well, you would have manual control over who you sell to. And this could finally make for an interesting environmentalism civic -- "resources are twice as efficient" for example.)
(Where did the OP go?)dh_epic said:
It's for this reason that I posited Oil as a 4th resource -- transparency and all that. Each Oil bonus would have a number attached to it, and the improvement you build draws against that number until you run out. The "reserve" amount would also be knowable. Not too different from your proposal, really, except that between "Yield" and "Resource." Mechanically it'd amount to the same result.
Is a 4th yield desirable or helpful? Probably not. Personally I think the unit support via gold is good enough, and I've suggested here and elsewhere that the least complex thing that could be done quite simply would be to increase upkeep costs for units that are stationed in enemy or occupied (rioting) territories.
Aussie_Lurker
Deity
Actually DH_Epic, I was only putting the % chance of disappearing thing there as an 'option'-I personally don't support that anymore myself. Instead I am all for 'resource scarcity'. No real fuzzy maths-just X units of a resource can support X+Y cities and units. If you exceed this limit, then you can have 1 of 2 things happen-either your costs start to increase (i.e. you get a flat multiplication of your Inflation) or the resources themselves become less efficient (make fewer cities happy/healthy, increased build times etc). To me, this isn't very complicated-especially if you have an easy to read interface which tells you IF a resource is abundant or scarce AND the degree of abundance/scarcity.
Aussie_Lurker.
Aussie_Lurker.
dh_epic
Cold War Veteran
Padmewan, I've always been wary of having resource treasuries. Having to measure an additional 9 strategic resources that all behave like gold would not just be a nightmare to play for the player, but a nightmare to balance. Moreover, you'd have to ask yourself what kind of gameplay you're trying to create. At the end of the day, if there are 9 resources treasuries, you're going to reward the player for micromanaging and microcalculating so they stay roughly around the zero mark... plus the nightmares involved in some kind of international trade mechanism on top of that -- having to decide how much to put on the open market and so on.
I know you're responding to the original poster... so pardon me if I'm being presumptuous that you're supporting a 'treasury'.
Having it work as capacity (like farms in warcraft) would be simpler. No pools means no microcalculation. A resource tile can support X+Y cities and units, and if you exceed that -- well, there are many ways to handle that.
Capacity, not treasury. My new slogan.
I like where Aussie has gone. (Aussie, I'm glad you've dropped the % chance of disappearance). Flat multiplication of your inflation sounds a little obscure and confusing -- probably because I know very little economic theory. Much more appealing, to me, would be a flat multiplication of your building times. Kind of like wonders -- with a resource you can build it at a certain speed, but without it you build it much more slowly.
I know you're responding to the original poster... so pardon me if I'm being presumptuous that you're supporting a 'treasury'.
Having it work as capacity (like farms in warcraft) would be simpler. No pools means no microcalculation. A resource tile can support X+Y cities and units, and if you exceed that -- well, there are many ways to handle that.
Capacity, not treasury. My new slogan.
I like where Aussie has gone. (Aussie, I'm glad you've dropped the % chance of disappearance). Flat multiplication of your inflation sounds a little obscure and confusing -- probably because I know very little economic theory. Much more appealing, to me, would be a flat multiplication of your building times. Kind of like wonders -- with a resource you can build it at a certain speed, but without it you build it much more slowly.
Aussie_Lurker
Deity
Hi DH_Epic. The Inflation I was referring to was that the one in your economics screen. My original point was that at the moment Inflation (in-game) is such a 'Black-Box' concept, so why not go in and reconstruct it to make it more transparent. Have inflation be a based on fixed factors like Income, Population and Techs-then have resource scarcity (and abundance for that matter) drive your base inflation rate up or down. As Inflation already alters the costs of unit and city maintainance, then having resource scarcity will clearly-though indirectly-increase the cost of your nation.
Hope that made more sense.
Aussie_Lurker.
Hope that made more sense.
Aussie_Lurker.
asioasioasio
Fallout Scrubber
Nice idea 
I think it should be made like this:
* supply and demand
* Units have a base oil cost which is deducted from the oil treasury each turn and also when moving (combination)
* If you run out of oil (oil capacity) they just be unable to move etc.
* Resources should be discovered more offten (not every bonuses should appear after discovering scientific methods, some could be discovered randomly - similliar to discover bonuses after building mines) and should be exhausted after longer term of using them)
* Oil should be also used by civilians (in way you discribed it)
* You can make:
- some technologies (adding or changing): Advanced chemistry (giving possibility to build rafineries, installations changing carbon into oil, producing chemical warfare? and giving some bonus to the food production), and Ecology (new option added - decrease demand of oil and some other resources
- national wonder : rafineries (increases production of oil by 25%) and installations changing carbon into oil (50 coal units will be changed into 25 units oil)
It would be much more realistic than option in game nad many mods should have implemented that
good luck
I think it should be made like this:
* supply and demand
* Units have a base oil cost which is deducted from the oil treasury each turn and also when moving (combination)
* If you run out of oil (oil capacity) they just be unable to move etc.
* Resources should be discovered more offten (not every bonuses should appear after discovering scientific methods, some could be discovered randomly - similliar to discover bonuses after building mines) and should be exhausted after longer term of using them)
* Oil should be also used by civilians (in way you discribed it)
* You can make:
- some technologies (adding or changing): Advanced chemistry (giving possibility to build rafineries, installations changing carbon into oil, producing chemical warfare? and giving some bonus to the food production), and Ecology (new option added - decrease demand of oil and some other resources
- national wonder : rafineries (increases production of oil by 25%) and installations changing carbon into oil (50 coal units will be changed into 25 units oil)
It would be much more realistic than option in game
nad many mods should have implemented that good luck
dh_epic
Cold War Veteran
Aussie,
Truthfully, I don't understand the current mechanism for inflation either. Truth be told, as long as you didn't do any worse than the current mechanism, having scarcity affect your inflation rate would work. I'm a slightly bigger fan of the building times, though.
More than anything: capacity, not treasury.
Truthfully, I don't understand the current mechanism for inflation either. Truth be told, as long as you didn't do any worse than the current mechanism, having scarcity affect your inflation rate would work. I'm a slightly bigger fan of the building times, though.
More than anything: capacity, not treasury.
Spartan117
Immortal
does the entire oil supply get used up, then what no moore oil on planet?!?!? not fun as all other resources will get depleted..and in 3000 C.E. archer vs. warriors
then more number oil and other resources will be needed and then less room for other improvements as map is entirely covered with resources
maybe there should be a certain amount of extraction 10 units of oil every 5 turns or something? this can be stored but the resource provides unlimited amount of oil and then you can trade AI certain amounts of oil but every resource provides unlimited amount but a certain amount every few turns.
i think ithis is easier and is effective enough then haaving resources randomly spawn...
two oil resources provide more. 20 units or whatever
then more number oil and other resources will be needed and then less room for other improvements as map is entirely covered with resources
maybe there should be a certain amount of extraction 10 units of oil every 5 turns or something? this can be stored but the resource provides unlimited amount of oil and then you can trade AI certain amounts of oil but every resource provides unlimited amount but a certain amount every few turns.
i think ithis is easier and is effective enough then haaving resources randomly spawn...
two oil resources provide more. 20 units or whatever
Aussie_Lurker
Deity
This is exactly why I DON'T support an outright resource depletion system. The idea is that, when the oil 'runs out', you WILL be able to find other sources of fuel-they will just be much more expensive. By tying resource scarcity to the in-game inflation system, then this fact can be reflected through increased unit costs. Hope that makes sense.
Aussie_Lurker
Aussie_Lurker
Spartan117
Immortal
oh i get it thats what this discussion was about inflation... i didnt exacly read through all of it....
Jouda
.
Spartan117 said:
There are many solutions to the situation when resources are depleted. What i have in mind is adding a new technology - "Energy storage". This tech would enable building of "Battery cell factory" which would provide you with "battery cell" resource which could be used instead of oil, coal, whatever.
Another option, which seems to be what has happened throughout modern oil history, is that when one source is depleted, a new one appears. Heightened demand drives up prices, leading to previously non-viable sources suddenly becoming viable (with new tech, which we can abstract away). Of course, at some point of the oil is REALLY gone, but don't tell W. that.
(bold & italics added)Padmewan said:
Then why not abstract away the whole thing and leave it as it is? All you've added is additional detail without changing the game.
Heh... just responding to the OP.Jaybe said:
One reason to have resources disappear and reappear -- not randomly but at a knowable time (at least on in the case of disappearance) -- is that it gives more dynamism to the game map and has some correlation to our historical experience. If Saudi Arabia's oil reserves tap out, then Canada's oil sands become relevant, not because they were suddenly "discovered," but because they are now worth pursuing. This inevitably has an impact on the balance of power among nations.
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