New Tropical terrain type.

Harrier

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After the next V36 release.

New terrain type.

I would like a new terrain type to be added to the C2C mod - terrain Tropical. This would be a terrain type only added between the tropics of Capricorn and Cancer.

The reason is to do with Jungles ( a feature). Jungle areas should give terrain damage (if that option is selected). The reason being the difficulty of moving through jungles, the restricted movement, humidity. animals, insects, diseases etc. But features do not give damage only terrains. The existing damage terrains are not really suitable - mainly desert ot tundra types.

Obviously the main feature on this terrain would be Jungle, but it could be empty or contain other features (forest at the edges etc.) Leave this for further discussion. Hence the reason for this new thread.

As for base terrain yield (again needs discussion) but first thoughts 2 food and 1 hammer. (see * below)

The graphic could be a very dark green colour - to simulate the darkness due to the expansive overhead canopy.

The terrain damage would be 15% (standard) - the existing improvement - Jungle Camp would reduce this to 7%.

As for promotions, I thing either woodland 2 or 3 (not 1) should allow passage without damage. My vote is for 3. Lets not make it to easy.

* If the jungle is chopped to reveal the base terrain the damage factor would still be there. So I propose a new worker action similar to the remove marshland one, it could be introduced via the same tech. Remove jungle undergrowth, makes the terrain a plain or grassland - removing the damage penalty and reducing its yeild.

I was thinking this 'remove undergrowth' option should only be available if the jungle was removed - again open to discussion.




MAPS

All existing maps and scripts could still be played if this change was made - it just would not be implemented.

Existing pre-made maps would need to be altered - if the map maker wanted to. I would obviously do it to my maps SEM, SEM+ and LEM.

As for scripted maps, I have little knowledge, but if given an example map and details of what to change and where, I would be willing to update the other C2C maps. To reduce the burden on the C2C team.

So what do you all think of this proposal.
 
Features can and do give damage that is what coral and other reefs do.

Oops - forgot about the sea features. :blush:

Well if we could make the Jungle feature give terrain damage - that would be much easier. No need for a new worker action or the new terrain. Also no changes to the maps.

What do you think of this proposal. Remember it only effects players who use terrain damage. So not a big impact in the long run.
 
The terrain damage would be 15% (standard) - the existing improvement - Jungle Camp would reduce this to 7%.

This can be done using the current feature system.

On second thoughts, I am not sure the feature system does interact with the terrain damage option at all.

As for promotions, I thing either woodland 2 or 3 (not 1) should allow passage without damage. My vote is for 3. Lets not make it to easy.

I don't know what is possible with promotions.

The main problem as I see it is that this just gives everyone more incentive to clear the jungle.
 
The main problem as I see it is that this just gives everyone more incentive to clear the jungle.

This brings us back to my original suggestion a new terrain type that gives damage. If that terrain type can not be modified until the modern era - the desired effect is achieved in all the earlier era's. The jungle camp or other improvements reduces it. But removing the jungle does not.

It also reflects realism - just consider how rainforests/jungles are being decimated in the modern ages.
 
"Wanting to get rid of Jungle" is pretty much what the World was/is doing... Be it for wood, farmland, etc....
I think Jungle Camps can reduce damage to 0% - assuming that your troops always end their turn in the camp if they are on the same plot.
 
Desert Camps are a little bit too strong IMO.
2 :food: right after you can build them (ph era?) seems way too much; you can colonize the Sahara basically right after you can build Tribes. I'd instead increase :commerce: from them and add :food: VERY late, like when you can build large scale green houses.

Desert Camp:

+1 :commerce:

+1 :commerce: with Barter
+1 :commerce: with Trade
+1 :commerce: with Motorized Transport
+1 :food: with Refrigeration
+3 :food: with Vertical Farms


Keep in mind that Deserts are EMPTY. Except from resources and possible trade routes, there is not much that makes you want to life there,
 
How about making unit damage from jungle as a feature, but at the same time, making "chop jungle"/"remove jungle" worker action late in the tech tree? Removing jungle is not that easy as forests from other climate regions, I think.
 
People with Stone Age technology have been farming jungle for a very long time. However they do not remove the jungle. They use a slash and burn technique that improves the fertility of the soil and increases the number and quality of food producing plants. However they only do it one small clearing at a time not one whole 20x20 mile plot at a time.

Then various peoples have made further technological advances in such techniques that increase the food output from the jungle without removing it.

Currently starting in a jungle is a severe handicap. Joe's Jungle Camp reduces this handicap somewhat. Perhaps some upgrades to teh camp are needed.

There is a problem with the current improvements as for awhile you can remove jungle using slash and burn but then you loose that ability until you get iron working.

edit Chinampa is one I was thinking of. It is currently a building in the city but it could be an improvement requiring marsh or even marsh and jungle since I don't think we can limit improvements by latitude and we don't want these in the arctic/antarctic circles.
 
I actually like starting in the jungle... Jungle camps are fairly good, why would you say they are such a handicap?

To simulate the small scale slash and burn we could have an improvement that increases :food: and stuff, but upgrades to another upgrade after X turns that removes the jungle feature? If you remove it before the X turns, that would make the jungle regrow itself, so it's not totally unrealistic (we have Jungle/Forest features grow in 1 turn randomly).

Then we could have an early Jungle Farm that later upgrades to a Jungle Camp. Both would not remove the Jungle. Later in the Tech Tree - around 1900 or so - there should be a point were Farms yield way better :food: then those camps and a Lumberjack-like Improvement yields way more production, so that for maximum benefit you'd have to remove the feature, yet it's not very sustainable. Maybe by 2000-2030 you'd unlock something that gives Jungle negative Disease and :health:. The reason is, that the wast biodiversity there hold numberous molecules that have positive effects on certain diseases (like using ow concentrated spider toxins as painkillers etc). Also, Malaria and other Jungle Diseases can be cured by then.


In short:

I'd like to see an improvement progression where you gradually get better in using jungle tiles without remove them, then come to a time that allows fast grow when chopping jungle and in the end realize that you'd need jungle and stop chopping it again.
 
I actually like starting in the jungle... Jungle camps are fairly good, why would you say they are such a handicap?

To simulate the small scale slash and burn we could have an improvement that increases :food: and stuff, but upgrades to another upgrade after X turns that removes the jungle feature? If you remove it before the X turns, that would make the jungle regrow itself, so it's not totally unrealistic (we have Jungle/Forest features grow in 1 turn randomly).

Then we could have an early Jungle Farm that later upgrades to a Jungle Camp. Both would not remove the Jungle. Later in the Tech Tree - around 1900 or so - there should be a point were Farms yield way better :food: then those camps and a Lumberjack-like Improvement yields way more production, so that for maximum benefit you'd have to remove the feature, yet it's not very sustainable. Maybe by 2000-2030 you'd unlock something that gives Jungle negative Disease and :health:. The reason is, that the wast biodiversity there hold numberous molecules that have positive effects on certain diseases (like using ow concentrated spider toxins as painkillers etc). Also, Malaria and other Jungle Diseases can be cured by then.


In short:

I'd like to see an improvement progression where you gradually get better in using jungle tiles without remove them, then come to a time that allows fast grow when chopping jungle and in the end realize that you'd need jungle and stop chopping it again.

Malaria could only been stopped in Europe by large scale antibiotics and drainage of the swamps. So it could be a late 20th century tech, like you already have said. In Africa malaria can't currently be cured, since the extinction wasn't large scale and efficient enough. The flies developed antibodies and and the huge swamp areas still give them a good breeding pool.
 
Not flies, but mosquitoes.
 
People with Stone Age technology have been farming jungle for a very long time. However they do not remove the jungle. They use a slash and burn technique that improves the fertility of the soil and increases the number and quality of food producing plants. However they only do it one small clearing at a time not one whole 20x20 mile plot at a time.

Then various peoples have made further technological advances in such techniques that increase the food output from the jungle without removing it.

Currently starting in a jungle is a severe handicap. Joe's Jungle Camp reduces this handicap somewhat. Perhaps some upgrades to teh camp are needed.

There is a problem with the current improvements as for awhile you can remove jungle using slash and burn but then you loose that ability until you get iron working.

edit Chinampa is one I was thinking of. It is currently a building in the city but it could be an improvement requiring marsh or even marsh and jungle since I don't think we can limit improvements by latitude and we don't want these in the arctic/antarctic circles.

I would very much like to see a JC improvement line.

As for Terrain Damage the suggestions/discussions here are good. But for me, they don't matter as I don't play with terrain damage On. As I feel TD should decrease as you progress thru the Eras.

I would pitch a fit if JC's ever become gutted in C2C, as they are now in AND. They ruined them. :(

JosEPh
 
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