new UA for Mongolians?

[stealth_nsk]

Would more suitable be to decrease the keshik strenght a bit, or make them cost more? From the comments here it seems they are almost too powerful, havent played them before though, I think.

Overall civ is balanced well. It's very focused and overall fun. If I'd make a list of civs which don't need any changes, Mongols would be somewhere in top-5.

 

[adwcta]

Mongol warfare is getting a slight buff with the BNW changes. Rationalism opener is now 33% less effective, and the universities +17% bonus is now no longer on the same path as the +science for specialists policy, so it will take 1 extra policy to get both of those. This will extend the keshik dominance era by at least a dozen turns if not more.

Mmmm... Keshiks.

 

[NukeAJS]

Mongolia is easily one of the top-tier civs in my book. +1 movement for cavalry units is nothing to laugh about, far from it. I think most people would agree that keshiks are the best UU in the game, and the khan is probably the most useful support unit you can have for any type of army.

Sure +30% against CSs doesn't seem that good, but when you have Maria or Alex or Siam allying every CS they can, you might as well just take them from them. Plus, you should be buying keshiks with money, not CSs ...

 

[bcaiko]

I hope so, conquering CS is quite often pointless as the benefit of allying them is usually more beneficial. The only time I consider conquering them is when they're allied with another civ I am in war with. Just an extra resource for your own use isn't worth the warmongering penalty.

Mongolia's going to have the warmongering penalty anyways, so just own it. An early City State conquest can get you some great cities early on, especially since City States tend to be settled on the Natural Wonders in game, and will have actually developed their land.

Mongolia's UA isn't super stong, but it's certainly not useless (well, it was in Vanilla, but it's not post G&K).

 

[wigwam]

I think most people would agree that keshiks are the best UU in the game, and the khan is probably the most useful support unit you can have for any type of army.

In my opinion, the Camel Archer is the best UU in the game; the Keshik is a distant second. The Camel Archer's ranged attack is almost 50% stronger than the Keshik's; the bloody things, fully upgraded, remain effective for four eras, until Bombers and Rocket Artillery finally replace them (with Volley, Logistics, and a Great General, a Camel Archer can do more damage per turn to a city than an unpromoted Great War Bomber can).

The combination of Keshik and Khan, though, makes the Mongols unstoppable.

 

[IkM]

In my opinion, the Camel Archer is the best UU in the game; the Keshik is a distant second. The Camel Archer's ranged attack is almost 50% stronger than the Keshik's; the bloody things, fully upgraded, remain effective for four eras, until Bombers and Rocket Artillery finally replace them (with Volley, Logistics, and a Great General, a Camel Archer can do more damage per turn to a city than an unpromoted Great War Bomber can).

The combination of Keshik and Khan, though, makes the Mongols unstoppable.

No they're not. bonus effects unit strenght and Keshiks get exp more than any others + they have 5 but Camel Arcers have 4.

 

[wigwam]

No they're not. bonus effects unit strenght and Keshiks get exp more than any others + they have 5 but Camel Arcers have 4.

They're not what? The bonus XP is nice but not important in the end, because by the Industrial Era all of your Keshiks or Camel Archers are going to be fully promoted one way or the other. The extra move is great, but it still doesn't make up for the fact that the Keshik goes obsolete two eras before the Camel Archer does.

 

[azzaman333]

The Keshik and Khan are so powerful that no buff is needed to the weak UA.

 

[Rick80]

I don't like Mongolia civ in the game... I preffer another characteristics

 

[Worlds_Crossing]

They're not what? The bonus XP is nice but not important in the end, because by the Industrial Era all of your Keshiks or Camel Archers are going to be fully promoted one way or the other. The extra move is great, but it still doesn't make up for the fact that the Keshik goes obsolete two eras before the Camel Archer does.

But Keshiks get the all-important Logistics and Range nearly twice as fast, faster with the Honor tree even. At the rate and speed with which they earn these vital promotion, the Camel Archer is a far, far second. Camel Archers are likely to be fully promoted by Industrial while fully promoted Keshiks come as early as the Renaissance with the speed with which they earn promotions. By the time Camel Archers get Logistics, Mongolia's Keshiks would have both Logistics and Range, and possibly March, assuming similar circumstances. This is a large difference, and one that really clinches the point for Keshiks. Logistics is a snowball promotion as well, speeding the acquisition of other promotions so the fact that Keshiks gain Logistics nearly twice as fast is a very big deal.

The extra strength is not as important as the extra movement given that these units were designed to be hit-and-run ranged units. They get in, hit something, then get out. Barring absolutely horribly terrain (fighting against the Inca, as an example), your Keshik/Camel Archer will never be touched except by Ranged or Mounted units. In horrid terrain, such as against the Inca, Arabia is up the creek without a paddle as their most vital asset is bottlenecked by the terrain, a problem Mongolia does not have as big a problem with, with their 5 move Keshiks.

Extra strength is neat and all and your explanation regarding Camel Archers being superior by the Industrial/Modern era is a valid one, but IIRC most games played with Mongolia barely reach the start of the Industrial for a standard map what with the Keshik spam consuming all that dare stand against it.

 

[wigwam]

But Keshiks get the all-important Logistics and Range nearly twice as fast, faster with the Honor tree even.

Keshiks will, relatively speaking, actually get promotions more slowly with the Honor tree, and never anything like "nearly twice as fast" as a Camel Archer. Keshiks get 3 XP per attack, 4 with Military Tradition. Camel Archers get 2 XP per attack, 3 with Military Tradition. At best, Keshiks get promotions 50% faster; if you've taken Honor, that's only 33% faster. Do the math: starting with 15 XP, each unit needs 85 more to get to Logistics. 22 attacks by a Keshik; 29 by a Camel Archer. Seven attacks is seven turns: one tech at Standard speed. They'll level up at practically the same rate.

In horrid terrain, such as against the Inca, Arabia is up the creek without a paddle as their most vital asset is bottlenecked by the terrain, a problem Mongolia does not have as big a problem with, with their 5 move Keshiks.

In bad terrain, a Camel Archer can still move and fire twice; the movement penalties from forest and hills aren't cumulative. With Range, there's no risk of return fire until Artillery comes along (and then, advantage: Camel Archer). The edge cases are when the terrain is bad and the unit has Logistics but not Range or the enemy has the Great Wall (or—yikes—both); in those cases, the Camel Archer is at a clear disadvantage (or in marsh terrain, but that's a serious edge case). It's still the better unit by far.

 

[Worlds_Crossing]

Keshiks will, relatively speaking, actually get promotions more slowly with the Honor tree, and never anything like "nearly twice as fast" as a Camel Archer. Keshiks get 3 XP per attack, 4 with Military Tradition. Camel Archers get 2 XP per attack, 3 with Military Tradition. At best, Keshiks get promotions 50% faster; if you've taken Honor, that's only 33% faster. Do the math: starting with 15 XP, each unit needs 85 more to get to Logistics. 22 attacks by a Keshik; 29 by a Camel Archer. Seven attacks is seven turns: one tech at Standard speed. They'll level up at practically the same rate.

Sorry for the misinformation, I haven't played CiV in a while in anticipation of BNW and it sure felt nearly twice as fast the last time I played as Mongolia. I also didn't think about Arabia with Military Tradition, frankly. You must admit Arabia with Honor is an odd choice; viable but odd. With Mongolia, Honor is almost a requirement.

The point however is Keshiks and in that respect, ironically enough, their biggest asset now that I think about it is their relatively low ranged strength. Ranged cavalry are powerful due to their ability to attack from afar and their ability to avoid return fire with their speed, neither of which pertain whatsoever to actual attack strength. Putting the subject of what makes ranged cavalry powerful aside, an army of Keshiks will likely gain Range, and Logistics much earlier than Arabia. A turn of tech can be a large thing in a game such as CiV, but putting that aside one, Keshik getting a vital promotion one tech early is one thing but an army of Keshiks getting a vital promotion one tech early is a game-changing thing. Ironically enough, the weak strength of Keshiks aid in this acquisition of promotions by generally not killing everything on sight (why the Mongolians have the weaker ranged cavalry, I am not sure).

For plinking an Industrial/Modern city to death with Keshiks/Camel Archers strength doesn't matter as much as their promotions. An army of Camel Archers is powerful but an army of Keshiks would likely gain the same strength but faster, however.

The simplest answer to this however would be an MP match given equal assets with an equal army of Keshiks vs Camel Archers. I don't have much experience with multiplayer,given my generally inconsistent internet, but knowing what happens in a level playing field against two real players would likely show which of our views is more viable in actual play. I generally found my CiV perspective on early snowballing bonuses (the Keshik reaches its apex faster compared to the Camel Archer) while you seem to prefer staying power (Camel Archers stay viable for longer). Both, in my opinion, are valid but seeing an actual match would be the best way to sort this. A long, very large and bloody match against two players with two of the best UU's in CiV for title of best UU in CiV.

Also, it would be either amazing or boring to watch. Maybe both. I can't possibly be the first person to have thought of this, right?

 

[megistatos]

In bad terrain, a Camel Archer can still move and fire twice; the movement penalties from forest and hills aren't cumulative.

Actually they are cumulative. Moving onto a jungle or forest on a hill costs 3 MP so only the Keshik can fight safely with this terrain. A Keshik's increased mobility means that they will spend more turns actually fighting than Camel Archers, which only further speeds their promotion speed.

I'm not sure it's necessary to use Honour as the Mongols. As you said it's relatively less useful. Tradition or Liberty will help you get to Chivalry as early as possible and I find that promotions come fast enough anyway, especially if you upgrade some blooded Chariot Archers.

This is maybe irrelevant to the discussion but do Keshiks have 4 or 5 movement points when gifted by a city state?

 

[wigwam]

Actually they are cumulative. Moving onto a jungle or forest on a hill costs 3 MP so only the Keshik can fight safely with this terrain.

Whoops, you're right. I've been running around forested hills with the Inca lately, guess I got confused by that.

Anyway, it's true, I don't think I've ever used Honor as either Arabia or the Mongols—neither civ has anything special you can leverage in the early game to really make it worthwhile. Without Military Tradition, the Keshik definitely has an advantage (in getting promotions quickly) over the Camel Archer. Maybe upgrading from Chariot Archers would basically negate that, though.

We won't know until we have our Arabia vs. Mongolia domination deathmatch!

 

[Worlds_Crossing]

Whoops, you're right. I've been running around forested hills with the Inca lately, guess I got confused by that.

Anyway, it's true, I don't think I've ever used Honor as either Arabia or the Mongols—neither civ has anything special you can leverage in the early game to really make it worthwhile. Without Military Tradition, the Keshik definitely has an advantage (in getting promotions quickly) over the Camel Archer. Maybe upgrading from Chariot Archers would basically negate that, though.

We won't know until we have our Arabia vs. Mongolia domination deathmatch!

The Mongols have the Khan with Warrior Code, though aside from the extra healing, for barb hunting, I guess, it provides absolutely nothing to help it. Admittedly, Mongolia would likely benefit more from Tradition or Liberty. In fact, Mongolia is likely one of the worst Honor civs in the game, with their ranged cavalry focus (Negating Warrior Code), shark mentality (You don't want to leave a Keshik just to babysit a city for the Military Caste bonus), and aversion to upgrading (Half of Professional Army's bonus gone). Buying Khans could be nice, I suppose, but with their speed you need even less of them than GG's. The extra Khan points are nice as well. Honor is really the worst early, if at least the most situational, SP branch, isn't it?

Despite this however, not taking Honor with Mongolia feels a little wrong. They were some of the most well-trained and feared combatants the world had ever seen. And every time I pick Honor, I imagine that story of the kingdom of Khwarezm.

Oh, as for Chariot Archers; better yet, get a CS with Horse Archers as either Mongolia or Arabia. Why start your reign of blood in the Renaissance? Laugh all the way to the enemy capital.