New Unit: Minuteman

Why not open a new forum, Krytens Rant Corner? :) I really like your rants.
I might change some attack and defence values now, apart from what I already have (attacking spearmen, and defending bowmen and longbowmen). The minuteman looks good, as usual, but I probably wont use it, as I have modded away the Americans; I can't stand to see american swordsmen running around, it just feel wrong, wrong, wrong!
 
Originally posted by Shady
How come all those revolutionaries can afford to have those wigs in place if they're havin a hard time paying taxes? They wouldn't be fighting if they were 55 and had white hair.

Anyway, great unit

because the powder was reletivly inexpensive and was fashion, and about those taxes many of them werent that bad (for example the tea act actually lowered the price of tea) and the taxes in briton were more than 10 times as high as they were here... theres some food for thought
 
Kryten,

I believe you have given some people some confusion as to the role, and whys and wherefores, of cavlary and infantry. Offensive Cavalry (not talking about scouts here) are shock troops and line breakers - always have been, always will be. If Napoleon could have had the majority of his army as cavalry, that's what he would have done. A line of musketman, fighting only with bayonets, marching towards enemy lines would be cut to ribbons. The 'battalion tactic' works be overwhelming your opponent with numbers. A cavalry unit would envelope and encircle the infantry line and cut them to ribbons.

So why did Napoleon use infantry as his primary offensive tool? Because they're cheaper to recruit, train and supply. Traditionally, cavalry have been noblemen wealthy enought to afford multiple horses (since just the one won't do); the infantry have been peasants who have no choice but to fight on foot.

The principle of cavalry as the main offensive weapon continues into modern day. Armoured, motorised and airborne detachments are the modern day equivalent of cavalry, and far more suited to attack, being able to envelope and encircle the enemy. So what offensive role do infantry play? Infantry are good at taking and holding objectives, because they are better able to set up a defensive position to hold the objective one it's been taken. In addition, cavalry are no good at clearing out tunnels, trenches, foxholes and other fortifications. However, throughout history, cavalry, and later tanks, have always been the battlewinners.
 
Well said, Zulu. I was tempted not to reply again given the emotional response some people were tossing forward.

Ok, first some ideas about Civ3 (why we are all here, and in figuring out how we can use these awesome units!) and then a little more c0w-ranting :lol:

I guess you guys don't like the high difference in attack versus defense for infantry. One problem with Civ3 is that you line up and attack one after another. From what I have read, you attack a platoon with a company, a company with a battalion, a battalion with a regiment, etc. With civ3, you can only attack a unit with the same size unit. So increased volume of fire from numbers cannot be modelled. If you had 3 infantry fire on the defender infantry, and the defender can only shoot at 1 of the attacker infantry, then the enemy dies faster. Since you cannot do this (you could in CTP2 with flanking units, darn) maybe the higher offense value makes sense. So, I guess if infantry defeat infantry without further support, either one side was far better trained, or they had a numerical advantage. On some rare occasions, such as in the Persian/Greek war, a new tactic worked.

About the the American Revolutionary War. It was a guerilla war, with some traditional battles, from all that I read. During the French/Indian War, our colonists learned how the Indians fought, working the ambush. Let's take, for example, the initial battles of Lexington and Concord. At Lexington, about 70 colonists met about 800 Redcoats, lined up, were fired at, died, and the British marched on. Traditional battle, dead colonists. But in Concord, more colonists (I think about 400 or so) came together and started firing at the Redcoats from behind walls. The Redcoat started taking casualties, began retreating, and while retreating the colonists continue to shoot from the shadows, killing more Redcoats. Colonists drove the Redcoats back. Although there were some traditional battles, much of the killing and attrition was through guerilla tactics. We won very few battles, but importantly, the last was one of the wins :)

I think some noses got bent by my using the word "bozos" :) Sorry if that happened, guys :lol:
 
I like the idea of the Minuteman replacing workers -- imagine attacking a nation where it's workers had a defense of 4, could not be enslaved, and fortified in the cities when the nation was under attack...

Their dual purpose is extremely efficient!
 
Originally posted by zulu9812
Kryten,
I believe you have given some people some confusion as to the role, and whys and wherefores, of cavlary and infantry. Offensive Cavalry (not talking about scouts here) are shock troops and line breakers - always have been, always will be....

..... throughout history, cavalry, and later tanks, have always been the battlewinners.

I do agree with you 100% Zulu. :)
Mounted troops, be they are mounted on horseback or mounted on armoured vehicles, have always been the kings of the battlefield.
Although they are not very good at defending and holding static positions, they have the best speed and manoeuvrability, and the best attack, which is why they have dominated many a battlefield (some of their main disadvantages is that they are not very good in difficult terrain or for taking fortified cities....which is impossible to reproduce in Civ3).
This I totally agree with.
But it is not the issue.
My point is that infantry CAN defeat other infantry, if they are NOT fortified.

Look at Napoleon’s greatest victory: The Battle of Austerlitz:-
The French cavalry were busy fighting the Russian & Austrian cavalry on the northern flank of this battle, and played no part in the decisive actions in the centre.
What won this engagement was the French musket battalions attacking and destroying the Russian & Austrian musket battalions on the Pratzen Heights.
Napoleon should have lost this battle according to Civ3, because Musketmen only have an attack of 2, but have a defence of 4.
(Chances of winning = 18%. Chances of losing = 82%)

What about Wolf’s victory outside Quebec in 1759:-
With no artillery, and no cavalry, and without outnumbering the French, the British musket battalions nonetheless attacked and defeated the French musket battalions.
How did they do this if they only have an attack of 2, but the enemy have a defence of 4?
(Chances of winning = 18%. Chances of losing = 82%)

The history books are full of other examples: every war, every campaign, every battle, infantry defeating other infantry, provided the defenders were not fortified (and sometimes even if they were!).

All I am suggesting is that Musketmen have an attack & defence of 4.
Cavalry, with their attack of 6, and their greater speed, still dominate.
But at least now the infantry can defeat other infantry, even if cavalry can do it better.
And should Musketmen attack a fortified enemy uphill, as the French did against the British in the Peninsular War, then this would be an attack of 4 against a defence of 7, or 22% chance of victory and 78% chance of defeat....which sounds about right.
(An attack of 2 against a defence of 7 has a 5% chance of victory and a 95% chance of defeat....
....the French might as well disband their Musketmen rather then attack....it would save time! :lol: )
 
Originally posted by Johann MacLeod


because the powder was reletivly inexpensive and was fashion, and about those taxes many of them werent that bad (for example the tea act actually lowered the price of tea) and the taxes in briton were more than 10 times as high as they were here... theres some food for thought

Yea I didn't know about the powder but I knew about the taxes. All the taxes before that were actually very severe if you were a farmer (which almost everyone was). But they never had a voice until the populist movement. When the stamp act started affecting the middle class, that's when things got going. It's always the middle class that gets good things going and makes them permanent like the american revolution or the progressive movement in early part of 20th century.
 
Originally posted by c0wg0esm00
About the the American Revolutionary War. It was a guerilla war, with some traditional battles, from all that I read. During the French/Indian War, our colonists learned how the Indians fought, working the ambush. Let's take, for example, the initial battles of Lexington and Concord. At Lexington, about 70 colonists met about 800 Redcoats, lined up, were fired at, died, and the British marched on.

I do agree with you c0wg0esm00, it was a sort of guerrilla war. But not a guerrilla war in the modern sense (there were no outright acts of modern day terrorism, such as a couple of people in a quiet region sneaking out at midnight, shooting a British soldier, then sneaking home again). They were far to ‘gentlemanly’ for that....it was a war without hate, if you see what I mean.
And it is very difficult to use modern day guerrilla tactics when you have large convoys of ammunition wagons and slow lumbering cannons in your army.
(“Right then my lad” says the redcoat as he searches a farm for concealed weapons. “I can understand why you possess a musket for hunting wild game, but would you care to explain why there is a 6 pounder cannon hidden in your barn?”. “Well…” the farmer replies, “....have you seen the size of some of the turkeys around here?” :lol: )
The American forces used armies….less disciplined, more mobile, but still armies.

And calling Lexington a ‘battle’ is a bit of an exaggeration....70 militia men, of which 8 were killed. More of a skirmish really.
The total casualties of both Lexington & Concord have been estimated at 273 British, and about 100 Americans.

As for the Minutemen’s skirmishing sniping tactics: as can be seen above, good for causing casualties while minimising your own, but a bayonet charge would scatter them, leaving the battalion free to march where it liked on the battlefield (to capture the cannons, or the baggage camp, or outflank an fall onto the main force’s rear).
That’s why George Washington trained the Continental Army to stand and fight in the European fashion, so that they could stand and stop a British battalion’s advance, without becoming scattered.
The only way to make untrained militiamen stand and hold their ground was to place them behind substantial walls and fortifications.

Fortunately for the Americans, many of the “bozos” in command of the British (we call them “upper class twits” over here), instead of trying to go around these barricades, decided to attack them head on! :eek:
(“They are only a wrabble of wrebellious wrebels! We will thcatter them with a thwift bayonet charge…..”)
The rest, as they say, is history. ;)
 
Originally posted by Kryten


I do agree with you c0wg0esm00, it was a sort of guerrilla war. But not a guerrilla war in the modern sense (there were no outright acts of modern day terrorism, such as a couple of people in a quiet region sneaking out at midnight, shooting a British soldier, then sneaking home again). They were far to ‘gentlemanly?for that....it was a war without hate, if you see what I mean.

Boy, do I love arguments. :D

If I remember correctly, During the French and Indian War, both side of the colonist employ the help of Indians and conduct raids on each other. And I believe the raid sometimes leave corpses without nose or ears (as war trophies for the Indians ;) ). And if I am not mistaken, the American uses what they learn during this period to conduct war on the Red Coats. :)

As to the argument that Cavalry is always best against infantry, maybe that was the case in Medival Europe. But it sure ain't the case in Ancient China. Since the era of warring states (and before that the Spring & Autumn period), formation of a troop is the most important thing. A formation will determine your movement rate, attack strenght against troops and cities, defence strenght etc. The most common formation was a simple line. There are others such as spearhead, square, circle and many more. The deciding factor is knowing your terrain and the formation they use so you can choose the best one to counter theirs.

For those who can read Chinese, here is a website (which basically is an E-Library of most (if not all) writen historical record of China). Be warn that most text is written in ancient chinese so it can get quite tough to digest :lol: But, it is a great source for anyone who wants to create any scenario on any period of China beside modern. In a section of the Sui Shu (or the history of Sui dynasty) there are even description of countries in South East Asia and all the way to Persia that includes their custom, main output, military strenght etc. :

http://www.sinica.edu.tw/~tdbproj/handy1/

Enjoy! :king:
 
Funny thing about the American Revolution is, we lost almost every battle except the last. And at the end, 1/2 of the strength of the Patriot Army was French :)

Back on Civ3, it sounds like there may also be some confusion as to what the icons represent. You can see the units as either battalions, which would then be pretty homogenous, or you can see them as regiments and above, in which case they will have battalions of different units. For example, a modern US mechanized brigade would have 2 battalions of Bradley Fighting Vehicles and a battalion of M1 tanks.

I guess among battalion, brigade/regiment, and division, I have seen the units to be more like brigades, given that in a game I may wind up with a few hundred land units. So, I don't really see cavalry as being only cavalry, just a land brigade drilled more with offensive tactics and equipped for attack.

Perhaps multi-units based on brigade arrangement could be interesting? Then, it isn't just cavalry attacking.
 

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@Kryten - I have read your rant on "Defensive Infantry", I rtuly agree on this that the Infantry should also be used for attack. In my Imperialism Mod, I have them as attack units that have there roots set way back in the Warrior, Swordsmen, Med Inf, days. I also had the Archers blend in with the Gun Infantry also :).
 
Cavalry vs. infantry has been one of my major toothaches since I bought civ3 (got an early not-so-legal version when I was visiting russia, month before it was possible for me to buy the real thing - which I did btw). Civ2's way to portray war was much better in many ways.

I think Kryten's view is more than just but it seems nobody is wrong here. It's things like the way AI uses units (and makes the player use them), the way different branches of arms have been separated and finally that it's sane to put million units in the same stack in civ3, which will make it hard for the game to portray the actions of a battlefield realistically.

Without a question mounted troops as arms have played a major part in battlefield and will continue to do so. Their purpose however can be divided to different roles, to view their behaviour troughout the history:

1. Mounted warriors rode to a combat zone, dismounted and marched on the battlefield to fight on foot. In this case the only advance of being mounted is strategic: fast movement of the unit. Modern equivalent is the mobile infantry - mech infantry comes close with the difference that their horses are mighty aggressive. In the Middle Ages in Asia quite similar formations did exist - mounted archers, cavalry with spears and swords plus light infantry units were used as shock formations. These were mobile troops which could react fast to enemy maneuvres on the battlefield - and save a day.

2. Chariots (probably the oldest) acted very similar to tanks - both in support and assault roles. It is a usual image that on battlefield hordes of chariots charge on infantry which starts to fail when it seems the fast moving menace. Other image is that two armies of chariots fight "in duel mode" with swords in close combat. These situations have taken place more in films than in reality. Due to the high cost chariots were often limited to few which operated to support infantry - while supported by infantry.

With slight changes knights and heavily armored cavalry were used in the same way during the middle ages. They were like early tanks, hard to wound but alone very clumsy, slow and wulnerable. Knights were all the time defended by the footmen, which made it easier for them to wound than get wonded and were able to draw the attention of the enemy on themselves - thus acting as points easy to distinguish from the action for the leader. This is how tanks were used before modern mobile warfare was introduced, and are used even today.

3. The purpose of cavalry itself is to support infantry. This can be seen by staring at numbers - a cavalry regiment is small, few hundreds, compared to an infantry regiment, can be thousands. Cavalry is always very expensive, their elite status is result of long training and high upkeep. Never it is a good idea to frontal assault the enemy infantry with even a tiny bit of cohesion, because it will cost money and expert men.

Cavalrys most valuable weapon is maneuvrability, which is a important factor when surprising the enemy. It can be easily used to harass artillery and to hunt escaping enemy footsoldiers, with some consideration to flanking mission and then it is better to keep the enemy occupied with something else, so the cavalry can flank in peace.

Cavalry plays an important role but infantry fights the battle. You can't attack to cities and forests with tanks without infantry cover and it was the same then. Places are narrow and tanks are blind and clumsy. Only soldiers on foot can be used against even highly fortified positions effectively. Can't imagine tanks or horses capturing houses or bunkers, riding uphill assaulting against lines of infantry aiming calmly at them.

Of course history is filled with exceptions but these are single battles, often fought in small numbers.


Then to another thing: "Bozo" tactics were sane at the time. Armies at the time lacked proper communication devices and weapons had to be loaded while standing. If the other guy used massive lines of musketmen and later riflemen backed by the artillery there's no way you can make your guys to attack fighting independently jumping up and down thinking about good moment to load the weapon. Guerilla warfare was a great idea, but it's effect to the outcome of the war is usually close to insignificant.

Bozo tactics were of course perverted compared to modern standards, today every life seem to be valued (but is a target nevertheless). It wasn't like that then, death in combat was a part of soldiers profession. Officers had honor codes, mainly because it was thought that there's no need to spend more lives and property that war usually demanded. Wars at the time costed thousands of lives, perhaps a some hundreds of thousands in total in Napoleonic wars. World War II took 50 millions in much less time. In my mind there's some idea behind the honor code. These days it's just about bombing from miles away. As George S. Patton said: "Where's the honor in that?"


So to be in-topic I'd have to say the infantry should have at least the same attack strenght than defence, like Kryten suggested. Perhaps cavalry should have more movement points and artillery more range. But the game remains unrealistic because of limitless stacks. I've also been thinking about making railroad unavailable just to make wars more interesting.

Wake up, it's over!:)

Ukas
 
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