New wonders thread

[soren]

Shyrramar:

Spanish Inquisition and White Man’s Burden??!!

In the Inquisition, the Jews of Spain massacred and forced to leave (in addition to the already 5000 years of this).

The White Man’s Burden is a justification for racism and imperialism.

I’m not sure these are the best options, and don’t like the idea of this being a going “forward” in the tech tree.

I KNOW WE already have facism and so forth, but these specific things I really don’t like.

 

[h4ppy]

King James Bible
requires: The one that lets you build Sistine Chapel ( forget the name)
Expires: Scientific Method (or whatever gives you darwins theory)
Effects:Cathedral in every city (maybe too powerful but Temple in every city is already being used

 

[Shyrramar]

@Soren: first of all, I want to make clear that I am with you in condemning these. There are one of the darkest moments in our history, for sure, but so are the Crusades (which you left out, by the way...). But what I am saying is that they are part of our history, nonetheless, things that had a deep impact. Neither of these would be "Going forward" in the tech tree, they would be optional - and they would have militaristic consequences. We can't dump fascism because it's not nice, now can we? Same applies to these.

But of course, these are something to be discussed. I just wanted somethings to have militaristic consequences instead of just technological/economical. I didn't mean to offend.

 

[soren]

Originally posted by Shyrramar
@Soren: first of all, I want to make clear that I am with you in condemning these. There are one of the darkest moments in our history, for sure, but so are the Crusades (which you left out, by the way...). But what I am saying is that they are part of our history, nonetheless, things that had a deep impact. Neither of these would be "Going forward" in the tech tree, they would be optional - and they would have militaristic consequences. We can't dump fascism because it's not nice, now can we? Same applies to these.

But of course, these are something to be discussed. I just wanted somethings to have militaristic consequences instead of just technological/economical. I didn't mean to offend.

Yes, the Crusades I forgot about.

What consequences (game wise) do they present? (In real life, there was, indirectly.)

You didn't offend. It was assumed that you condenmed these things. I perhaps shouln't have brough this up -- it's just that my radar goes off everything these things pass through (Facism is too general to pass though). I"m sorry if I gave off the impression that you offended, since I know that is an uncomfortable situation.

 

[deo]

Terra Cotta army
Iron working
Costs:200
Produces every 5 turns a swordsman

 

[Vizurok]

Terra Cotta is from Rise of Nations? I think that is too powerful, it could get moved to Monarchy (or Fudalism).

I completely agree with renaming the Colosseum to Stadium, yes in the Modern Ages it looks like a Stadium.

The Great War (picture: a marching soldier)
cost: 700 or 800
Mass Production or Replaceable Parts
effect: Mobilizitation wih the ability to build peaceful things
OR/AND
Drafted soldiers get 3 hit points

Media
cost: 800
Radio (damn, its no longer) then Electornics or Computers
effect: cities immune to propaganda
AND
your propaganda may suceed on Democracy

 

[Shyrramar]

Originally posted by soren

What consequences (game wise) do they present? (In real life, there was, indirectly.)

Good that this is settled then
I would go for the same idea that Knights Templar. They would produce units. White Man's Burden could work as Universal Suffrage in that it reduces war weariness. The problem is that the Crusades and Inquisition are too close together - so it wouldn't work to implement both. Unless Inquisition would have religious effects..
So Crusades could produce units in your capital - it would in effect replace Knights Templar as a scientific wonder in stead of something you build. White Man's Burden would reduce war weariness (for obvious reasons) and Inquisition would have effects on religion (see religion-thread), perhaps making your religious influence greater (or more accurate: lessen others' religious influence...)
But these are just ideas. If you have better, please do say it out loud

 

[h4ppy]

Inquisition could remove pops of different religion. (if that idea is implemented) the only problem would be that the liberal media would say Firaxis is supports genocide, something they most certainly don't support.

 

[AdHHH]

The Communist Manifesto - available with Communism. Makes all other Civs fall into Anarchy (would obviously be less effective in some games than others if the 1 turn anarchy bonus is still given to certain Civs).
Ecole Militaire (or something in the same vein) - Small Wonder, allows elite units to be produced in the city where it is built. Requires Military Academy in the same city. Available with Nationalism, perhaps, or is that too early?

 

[h4ppy]

Communist manifesto is totally unrealistic. (and wonders should help a civ, not hurt other civs)

 

[Shyrramar]

@AdHHH: Unlike h4ppy here, I would say it is a fine idea. Wonders CURRENTLY don't hurt other civs, but why not? Proper timing would really mess up the other civs for a short while. It's a bit on the radical side, but it shouldn't be wholly dismissed because of that. There is also very little difference between helping one civ and hurting others - or would you say that Knights Templar purely help the civ in question by building up its army?

I think that elites should be earned through battle, though. There is simply no making of elite units without combat. It is actually a bit silly idea have barracks producing veteran units to begin with. Making your units conscript without barracks and regular with it would actually make barracks a bit more effective and would make elite troops harder to get, and therefore a lot more valuable..

 

[Manverulin]

Opera House
Requires Music Theory
Cost: 400 - 600 ???
Makes 2 citizens happy in all your cities and 3 in the city that it's built in.

 

[Cuivienen]

Bah. We don't need any more happiness wonders.

Angkor Wat (200, early AA religious tech) -- gives each town a culture-producing building (1 cpt, like the Mesopotamia Burial Grounds)

Vespian's Colosseum (300, late AA construction tech, 3 Colosseums) -- extra trade, reduced revolution time

The Ramayan (religion-specific for Hinduism)
The Torah (religion-specific for Judaism)
The Bible (religion-specific for Christianity)
The Qu'ran (religion-specific for Islam)
etc.

 

[Pook]

I'd like to see a Chunnel small wonder that could connect two tiles of land separated by a single coastal tile. Cost would be 200-300. One concern I see in programming this is - since the wonder is not located in a city, which city pays for it? Hopefully the programmers could devise a mechanism.

 

[AdHHH]

Shy: An elite building city may be too powerful, I agree, it was just something I thought off the top of my head.

h4ppy: I don't know why you would consider this unrealistic; The Communist Manifesto was published in 1848, a year in which there was insurrection across Europe (in France particularly, and to a lesser extent in England). Now obviously i can't prove the causality of this but I think that a pamphlet that changed the 19th and 20th Century so radically should be acknowledged, and I think this would be a good GW *because* it holds other players back; it helps the builder Civ to 'catch up' and therefore would be useful, allowing a new type of wonder for a new type of gameplay

 

[Balázs]

Hi!

Philosophy:
It should grant a Modern/industrial tech(like Demosthenes or Democrithos, who somehow deducted that everything is made of atoms[non-divedables]).

Chitizen Itca: Slaves work as fast as normal worker(they fear, that they would be sacraficed).

Ancient Olimpics: Like UN in CIV II.

Tech: Standardization: -5% or -10% unit shield cost, -25% upgrade.

Tech: Martial Arts(or similar) citizens can defend cities(at a VERY BAD Defense[1/2* worst buildable military-unit?]??? Don't know if this won't unbalance the game.
Couldbe called 'Volkstrum'.

Tech: Religious Reformation(Luther). +1 citizen/ city made content.

Nation: Byzanthium: UU: Khlibanophoros(ultra-heavy knight, not sure if this is the right spelling), not a fast unit .

Wonder: China Silk Trade Route (from Currency to Caravell/magnetism/navigation).

Giant Palace at Samara:
Doubles Cultural Output of the city, but cost 15 GPT
(the palace was 1,56 km^2[~0,61 sqmiles], at its top the city reached pop:100.000, fifty years later pop:15.000. .


New nation: Jews.
Religios & Commercial(UU:Settler/worker that has 1 defense).

Or

Militaristic & (Commercial or Religious)
UU:mosad agent.

Special ability: twice the normal time(half probability) for conversion.

Ability: Agricultural: gives food on mountains(Inca, Japan, China).
Japan Could be Agricultura(not that important). Japan should begind with warrior code(bushido).

Europe:

Luxuries

There should be Grapes in:
France(around Aquitania, Poutoi[??], Champagne ).
Italy(Sicily, Toscana)
Hungary
Hispania(Around Toledo)

Furs: Novgorod

Ivory: Around Alexandria.

Gem's: Don't know .

Spices: Well Transylvania had Salt(Extrem masses, along with Gold, those were in Slovak Republic[called: Felvidék~highland, upland] too), don't know if Salt is considered as Spice.

And Hungary(not nowadays, but the historical[region: today's Hungary+Transylvania+Slovak Republic+Burgerland[a little from Austria]+Slovenia[Dalmatia]+Croatia+South Western Part of Ukraine[from the borders to Carpathia]+Roughly the half of Serbia[Belgrad was an imortant Castle at South of Hungary, called 'Nándorfehérvár'<fehérvár = belgrad=white castle>]) was a "Great Marsh", mostly the Western part. That is why Germans(Teutons) couldn't conquer Hungary, becacuse they couldn't use their knights on the Marshes in the begining.
Later on King Matthias of the Hungarians(aka Matthias Corvinus, just like Corvinus in movie: Underworld) conquered Wien and Bratislava in the XV. century.

Sorry, if this seems to be "the Glorious Historical Hungary", but I felt important to correct some things.

That's all.

 

[Shyrramar]

Originally posted by Balázs
Philosophy:
It should grant a Modern/industrial tech(like Demosthenes or Democrithos, who somehow deducted that everything is made of atoms[non-divedables]).

There is nothing mystical about this. It is simply a result of the fact that Greeks didn't believe in actual infinity, but only in potential infinity - so they thought that you could only increase something forever, but there was no actual infinity that could somehow be accessed. This of course leads to a simple deduction: if I start breaking things in half, I get smaller and smaller units. Because there is no actual infinity, there MUST be a smallest unit: namely an atom. This has absolutely NOTHING to do with modern day atomic theory. This is the reason why ancient Greeks didn't have any atomic bombs or nuclear plants!

There is also no idea, IMO, in implementing something like this into the game. It would be very unrealistic and very, very unbalancing. You must remember, that no single modern/industrial age technology is based on ONE idea, but on a stream of ideas.

And salt is not considered a spice, sorry...

 

[rcoutme]

So long as wonders (and by this I mean built and discovered) have benefits that get obsoleted, many more wonders could be added (since redundancy would actually be the norm instead of the exception). One of the really fun scenarios was "Double Your Pleasure" specifically because of this.

 

[soren]

Originally posted by Balázs
New nation: Jews.
Religios & Commercial(UU:Settler/worker that has 1 defense).

Or

Militaristic & (Commercial or Religious)
UU:mosad agent.

First of all, "Jews" is not a nation. Israel is a nation, and before that Judea. Jews live througout the world (mostly USA, followed by Israel.) "Jews," as a term, assumes a culutral, religious, and sometimes national sense. They range form orthadox to secular (even atheist...), and very diverse. Using "Jews" as a nation is inacurate.

As for UU, macabee is usually suggested. But I really like you idea abou the settler/worker with a defese idea. (If they were to have mosad agent as as UU, what would its ability, stats, and replacemtn, if any, be, I'm curious?)

As for Traits, I think scientific should perhaps be one more suitable. Marx, Einstein, Derrida, 30-40% of harvard...: Jews.

 

[Ebitdadada]

In my games I have a wonder called "Wall Street". It has the effects of the Colosus + 50% tax increse and 50% luxury increase. It requries a "National Stock Exchange" (or Wall Street) in the city.