Newbie question about unit upgrades

[torsoboy]

This might be a question more about fundamental rules of the game, but it seemed best to ask here.

I read in a wiki page that a Champion (melee) can upgrade to a Paladin (disciple). What unit promotions does the Paladin keep from its previous career? Would it be possible to get a Paladin with Enchanted Blade (melee only) this way? Are there other melee only promotions that would be useful to a Paladin?

I also saw that Confessors can upgrade to Paladin. Does it keep the Channeling and Divine promotions?

I haven't played Grigori yet, but it seemed like an important thing to know before using Adventurers.

 

[Senethro]

Promotions that you gain through XP or are intrinsic tend to stick, even if they're inappropriate for the unit they're upgraded to. Promotions gained through magic tend to drop.

I think the Paladin would lose enchanted blade if up graded from axeman, but can certainly cast religion appropriate spells if upgraded from any priest unit.

 

[torsoboy]

Thanks for the answer!

Now, are there certain upgrade combos in this mod that are frequently used? It seems that there is potential for some great units to be upgraded this way. I'm trying to figure out if it's better to upgrade or to build, considering there are many buildings and civics that give exp and promotions to newly built units.

edit:
Interestingly, I came on this post in another thread:

The main use of lightbringers isn't to farm EXP, but to start with huge amounts of EXP. With some Altars, Dies Dei, Desert Shrine, Education, and any other experience-boosting abilities, you can get Lightbringers to start with ~17 EXP. These lightbringer can then upgrade along different paths, as long as you have different religions:

Fellowship of Leaves: Disciple of Leaves -> Ranger -> Beastmaster
Octopus Overlords: Zealot -> Stygian Guard -> Eidolon
Ashen Veil: Savant -> Mage -> Archmage/Lich

This allows some unique versions of these units. Down the FoL path, your Rangers/Beastmasters will start with Sentry and a nice chunck of EXP: It is possible to give them March from their Disciple days. Eidolons which upgraded from Stygian Guards retain their Water Walking ability. Instant-Mage/Archmages, of course, are always useful.

Note that all of the above units retain their Potency promotion. Normally Potency for mages is restricted to Arcane leaders, but using the AV loophope Spiritual leaders can get it as well. Melee/Recon units were never designed to get those promotions, but they get them anyway. If done right, it can be veyr powerful.

 

[Senethro]

Theres some false information in that post - Potency promotion only affects Disciple units with a channelling promotion or Arcane units. Otherwise, its largely correct.

Heres a few other ideas - Elohim Assassin is a Devout, which has Life I spell. It upgrades to some Priest units, which have Channelling 2. This means it can now promote to Life II for the Destroy Undead spell. For one additional stage, upgrade it to a Druid for Channelling III to get the High Priest spell of that religion and Life III.

Radiant Guards upgrade to Champions or their replacements, like Vampires. Vampires upgrade to Vampire Lords, which have Channelling 3. So, you can have Vampire Lords with Sun III spell.

 

[Emptiness]

I'm trying to figure out if it's better to upgrade or to build, considering there are many buildings and civics that give exp and promotions to newly built units.

The advantages of building a unit directly are simplicity and less micromanagement. The potential advantages of upgrading are interesting and powerful abilities. There are a lot of upgrade paths in FfH2, and deciding whether to build a Knight (for example) or upgrade it from a Warrior or a Scout or a Radiant Guard or a Royal Guard is part of the fun. The fact that there are so many ways to produce a knight, each of which offers different benefits for the end unit, is what makes FfH2 so flexible.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Theres some false information in that post - Potency promotion only affects Disciple units with a channelling promotion or Arcane units. Otherwise, its largely correct.

That is not true. The Potency promotion only effects units with the <bFreeXP>1</bFreeXP> tag. Most of these units already have Channeling promotions, but Lightbringers and the first level disciples of each religion have the tag too.

 

[Senethro]

Well I'm glad you corrected me, as you're the original source for that information some months back!

 

[torsoboy]

Played some more, and also found out that bronze/iron/mithril weapons don't stick around if a Champion is upgraded to a Paladin. However, I did find out that Champions can upgrade to Knights with City Raider upgrades... whether or not that is very useful remains to be seen. For what it's worth, going down the Combat line and taking Cover I (and perhaps Cover II) along the way seems to provide satisfactory results without the hassle of upgrading.

Another newbie question: What's the experience point to promotion formula? Or in other words, how many exp do I need to become level 15 (there's this angel chick I need to rescue)? How many exp would I need if I had the charismatic trait?

On another note, this Chalid dude is quite the game winner. I was in defender mode against the top dog (Illians) for most of the game - they had about 1000 points on me, until I got Chalid. With a stack of Radiant Guards and Cats he wiped out most of the Illians and is in the process of erasing the Ljosalfars on the return home. I thought Order for Bannor was ok'ish but now I'm convinced Empyrean blows that right out of the water. Oh, forgot to mention that Donal Lugh was in on the party as well.

 

[Emptiness]

Level 2 is earned at 2 xp. Each level after that costs ((current level) * 2) - 1) additional xp. So going from level 2 to 3 is ((2 * 2) - 1) = 3 more xp, or 5 xp total. Level 4 is ((3 * 2) - 1) = 5 more, or 10 xp total.

Charismatic reduces the total xp needed for any level to 75% of the normal amount (rounded up). Level 2 is (2 * .75) = 1.5 -> 2 xp, level 3 is (5 * .75) = 3.75 -> 4 xp, level 4 is (10 * .75) = 7.5 -> 8 xp, and so on.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

I think the Paladin would lose enchanted blade if up graded from axeman, but can certainly cast religion appropriate spells if upgraded from any priest unit.

You need the channeling line, the Divine promotion, and a religion to cast divine spells. Pretty sure Paladins don't get the first two.

Druids are the only unit who can be abused in this way through upgrading. It can be done because Druids used to be healers and divine was a requirement for cure disease/heal, but when Kael changed the way heal's prereqs work he forgot to change druids to match.

 

[Emptiness]

Paladins (and Eidolons) upgraded from Tier 2 religion units can cast the Tier 2 divine spells, as well as cure disease. If you upgrade them from a Tier 1 religon unit they won't have that ability, however.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

uh... huh. Does that mean channeling promotions aren't deleted by upgrades?

 

[Emptiness]

That appears to be the case. A Paladin upgraded from a Tier 2 priest retains Channeling II, Divine, and Medic II. I bet there's some fun ways the Amurites can play with that.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

It's common knowledge that govannon can make priests function like mages, but.... mm. What spell would suck when cast by a priest, but rock when cast by a beefy combat unit? Has to be some powerful, self only buff. Stoneskin. Maybe water walking. Enemy ships tend to travel in great big packs and you only get 4 paladins/eidola, so water walking's not too useful for fighting navies, but for traipsing across a lake or unguarded coast to be safe from counterattacks it could rock.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Of course, you could get Water Walking from upgrading from a Cultist/Drown/Stygian Guard just as easily.

 

[Onionsoilder]

Of course, you could get Water Walking from upgrading from a Cultist/Drown/Stygian Guard just as easily.

Very true, and this is an interesting dilema... Do you upgrade from a Drown and get Cannibalize, City Raider, and other combat-boosting promotions? Or do you upgrade from a Cultist and get Tsunami...

It would be interesting to switch to Order after getting some cultists/guards, then you could have Water-Walking Paladins, who get a bonus versus other Stygian Guards.



One of my favorites is going Devout -> Priest -> Druid. They can go about Vitalizing your empire, and when they're done, join your army casting Destroy Undead and priest spells. Of course, this requires adopting OO/CoE at some point, or possibly going AV then Empyrean or RoK.

 

[torsoboy]

It's common knowledge that govannon can make priests function like mages, but.... mm. What spell would suck when cast by a priest, but rock when cast by a beefy combat unit? Has to be some powerful, self only buff. Stoneskin. Maybe water walking. Enemy ships tend to travel in great big packs and you only get 4 paladins/eidola, so water walking's not too useful for fighting navies, but for traipsing across a lake or unguarded coast to be safe from counterattacks it could rock.

Confessors can take the Earth II promotion (if they get taught the Earth I promotion by Govannon I presume), and then upgrade to Paladin? Is there any other way for disciple units to get Earth I / Earth II?

The most useful vanilla upgrade path I've encountered so far is Champion (Combat III, March) -> Knight. March is usually excluded from cavalry types, and with good reason. March with Withdraw chances is a nice combo in my opinion.

 

[PekkaR]

The most useful vanilla upgrade path I've encountered so far is Champion (Combat III, March) -> Knight. March is usually excluded from cavalry types, and with good reason. March with Withdraw chances is a nice combo in my opinion.

It was already mentioned in a quote above but it's worth repeating that Recon, the second fastest moving line that normally can't get March either, can get it by promoting a Marched Disciple of Leaves (or Lightbringer) into a Ranger. Divine units are easiest to build with some exp out of the gate and Disciples can take March immediately thanks to already having Medic I.

Same for Mages from Savants but it's not as important.

 

[xalien]

Upgrade nightwatch into assassin for an instant mask ability.