NEWS: FFHOTM 01 Pre-Game Discussion

Vulcans

Prince
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Aug 9, 2005
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FFHOTM 01: Valledia the Even



Welcome to the first fall from heaven game of the month!
It’s a crowded map with aggressive AI. Time to let some spells fly!

This game MUST be played with FFH2 0.23c with smarter orcs 0.14
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=219448

Please do not use xml modifications so that everyone is effectively playing the same game.




Game settings:
Civilization: Amurites (Leader: Valledia the Even; Traits: Arcane Organized)
Rivals: 5
Difficulty: Prince/Monarch/Emperor (depending on game class chosen)
Map: Continents
Map size: Small
Climate: Temperate
Water level: Low
Starting Era: Ancient
Speed: Epic
Options: Aggressive AI, Raging Barbarians
Victory Conditions: All enabled


Valledia the Even :
Valledia the Even is Arcane and Organised;
The Amurites have no ancient history, no glorious empire in the Age of Magic to harken back to or trace their lineage from. In terms of civilizations, the Amurites are new comers on the world stage. Nevertheless, they are a force to be reckoned with, feared by some, and respected by all. Part of that respect stems from the tremendous magical power the Amurite armies command, but no small part of it stems from the incredible story of their genesis.
The Amurites call themselves the Children of Kyorlin. According to their own legends, the arrival of the archmage Kyorlin saved the Amurite people from obscurity or possibly extinction during the Age of Ice. Not even the Amurites know exactly why Kyolrin picked these people as his chosen folk, but they maintain that it was because of a particular strength of character.
Whatever the reason, when Kyorlin appeared he changed the fortunes of the tiny, struggling clan that had been the Amurites. For years he lived in their midst, taking new wives as his old ones died of old age or in childbirth, leading the Amurites to a level of organisation and advancement unrivalled by any other nation in the Age of Ice. Generations came and went, but Kyorlin remained a constant, working towards some arcane goal with the Amurites as his willing and joyous tools. Whether through magic or sheer force of will, he remained young throughout.
Until the day Kyorlin strode out of his home. His face had aged many years, terrible purpose shone in his once soft and kindly eyes, and a magnificent blade hung faintly glowing by his side. With no farewells and no apologies, he went forth into the icy wastes and never came back. Soon after, the Thaw began.
He had, however, left behind a powerful gift: his children. Through the years there had been quite a few, and they all carried latent magical abilities. Though the advancement made during the guardianship of the immortal starting leaking away during the Thaw, Kyorlin’s powers remained. Throughout the years, the children of Kyorlin intermarried with the rest of the Amurites, and the abilities spread, making the Amurites the civilization that is most magnificently in touch with the magical currents of Erebus.
This link has effected every aspect of Amurite life. They run their nation like a great magical school, training as many of their young as possible in, at the very least, basic magic skills. Their schools are so famous, they even attract those with magical abilities from other corners of the globe to join their ranks. The Archmages and Head Masters of the Schools and Universities act like an aristocracy in a nation that does not really have one, wielding great political power beyond the walls of their institutions.
As with any larged collection of scholars, the Amurites are mired in scholarly bureaucracy, the most insipid form of administrative quagmire known to man. The Archmages, like professors, are frequently involved in petty squabbles over obscure matters that develop into personal feuds. Positions and knowledge are jealously guarded and hard to obtain; potential rivals are stonewalled at every turn. It is easy to become a mage in the service of the Amurites, but it takes a shrewd, powerful and unscrupulous practitioner of magic to rise to the apex of magical power.
Above all, the Amurites have come to worship magic for its own sake. Their fascination with all aspects of magic is so deep that they do not feel hindered by petty alignments and concepts of "good" and "evil". Any avenue of magic can be explored, but some branches, like necromancy, are governed by strict laws and regulations, in order to prevent abuse and disasters. Justice for a mage who ignores these laws and starts dabbling in the regulated branches without obtaining the necessary permission is merciless, final, and in keeping with their fascination with the uses of magic, rather spectacular. No possibility is left for repeat offence.
Since the Amurites do not feel themselves confined by the alignments most nations follow, they are treated with a healthy amount of distrust by good and evil civilizations. Evil civilizations dislike the regulation of the dark and chaotic spheres, good civilisations are worried that they are not forbidden entirely. While not specifically hated by any, they have trouble making truly close allies. However, they don't feel they need any. As long as they are left in peace to conduct their magical experiments, they are happy, and wise rulers respect that. Those few who have crossed the Amurites and felt the fire of their arcane might have no desire to repeat the experience. Many have not been left the option.


Unique units:
Wizard: Has the Spellstaff ability for twice as many spells as a mage
Firebow: Replacement of longbow with flaming arrows, sorcery, channeling 1, channeling 2, and fire. Time for some fireballs!

Hero:
Govannon: Str 4, Sorcery, Channeling 1,2,3, Trainer.
He is a master trainer, and can train other units to cast spells.

Unique buildings:
Cave of Ancestors: gives +1 xp per mana to adepts created in the city


Edit: i took the dificulty down one level, allowing prince players, as smarter orcs might be new to some people, and although a good challenge is more fun and rewarding, i don't want people excluded from the game as if the dificulty is to high for their ability. AI will start with the same starting units in all games (settler, 2 warrior, scout, worker).

Adventurer Class bonuses:
AI production/research set to prince levels.
Bonus warior provided.

Contender Class:
AI production set to Monarch level

Challenger class equalizers:
AI production set at Empror levels
No starting tec, southern wine removed.

Note: Some map features have been modified from a standard computer generated map, eg Acheron has already been inserted into the map to ensure identical spawning position for all games. These changes will be consistent for all games so everyone will have to deal with the same situation, hence reducing the randomness between games. I have also checked that he doesn’t spawn a second time.

The starting screenshot is here


And here is a settler view of the local area.



Now you can work out the optimum first moves. :goodjob:
 
Quick question: do you allow the less randomness modifications? That is, is it okay to set MAX_HIT_POINTS to 1000 and up all the factors in the end of the .xml to 10 (heal_factor, magic_factor, firststrike_factor etc). I'm really really happy you chose to run this gotm with Smarter Orcs and I'd love to give it a try, but I really can't play FFH without the fair combat system anymore.
 
Quick question: do you allow the less randomness modifications? That is, is it okay to set MAX_HIT_POINTS to 1000 and up all the factors in the end of the .xml to 10 (heal_factor, magic_factor, firststrike_factor etc). I'm really really happy you chose to run this gotm with Smarter Orcs and I'd love to give it a try, but I really can't play FFH without the fair combat system anymore.

This game will be played with the smarter Orcs mod (where they have been addressing combat calculation issues). That way everyone has the same exactly combat system, so we can all play identical games(which is the whole idea of GOTM).

The changes you mentioned favors the higher powered unit as it changes the combat mechanics, hence changing the game balance, and creating a different game.
 
I know what we did in Smarter Orcs, Vulcans, I'm one of the two developers ;) I'm just saying Smarter Orcs does not change the combat out of the box. It just implemented a system that makes it much easier to do so. Everyone is still going to have to edit their xml (or I can post a minimal edited xml here if you want me to). Fresh from the install, Smarter Orcs combat behaves just like vanilla ffh combat (some bugfixes aside).

And the change I mentioned does not really favor high powered units. It depends entirely on the situation. If you have something like 20 weak units fighting one strong unit, the strong unit is MUCH better off in unchanged ffh (greater granularity and wider randomness leading to much fewer combats in which the unit actually takes any damage). The main difference, though, is less randomness. If you have a strength 5 unit defending a city and a strength 3 unit attacks, there is a chance in normal ffh you will lose the city; in our combat system, a strength 5 unit (adjusted strengths of course) will never lose to a strength 3 unit. On the other hand, if you attack said city with a bunch of strength 3 units, you suddenly have a much better chance in our system. It just adds a lot of fairness to games, which is why I'm pushing for it :)
 
I understand your point. I’ve been following these combat discussions for a while. And I think the modified combat system would be better in the way that it reduces the randomness, although it does have side effects that subtly change the game.

Naturally if everyone plays under the same conditions then all have the same problems/advantages. Eg you can compensate by having a reserve unit etc.

The main thing in a GOTM style game is that everyone uses the same system. So changing the xml used in FFHOTM would require all GOTM players to change this file.

There could be people unwilling to change their xml file. And we don’t want to exclude anyone from the game.

What are other gamers opinions on this change? Can we have a consensus on what we should use for the standard format for FFHOTM. If 100% of the people here are willing to change the xml file then we could all play with the modified combat system.
 
I really like the idea of reducing combat randomness, esp. in GOTM, where winner should be one with some strategic skills, not just some lucky s.o.b. :)
 
I'm in this for the comparison of playing the same game with everyone, I'll play whatever people agree. That said, I've always found randomness a part of civ, and wouldn't vote for removing it (IE: I'd play "standard" Smarter Orcs, instead of combat-modified)
 
I'd also be quite happy with just Smarter Orcs. The randomised attack rolls have always been part of the combat system and personally I don't consider it a bug to be fixed, more an reworking of the combat rules that people might want to play.

Having said that, for the purposes of FFHOTM I don't mind that much as long as a package is provided for us to easily deploy.

Also - dare I suggest that the "Monarch / Aggressive AI / SmOrcs Mod" configuration is perhaps too difficult for the easiest game bracket? I've found that while learning the different FfH civ mechanics that even Prince / Aggressive AI can be difficult to win depending on your start, even though I am familiar with CiV and I suspect I am not a complete idiot. ;) I do play on Normal speed though, perhaps Epic makes a difference?
 
That's a very nice starting position!

Lets not monkey around with the standard FFH II too much guys, make too many requirements and special rules and you lose potential players.
 
MisterBenn: we never considered it a bug. That's the very reason our change is off by default. We try to alter the game mechanics as little as possible.

Okay, in case the consensus will be to play with fair combat, I've whipped up a version with fair combat settings in the xml (changed max_hp to 1000 and adjusted all the factors, multiplied lifespark heal by 10 (meaning lifespark remains useless ;P))

You can get it here: http://bringa.ubermutant.net/Smarter_Orcs_023c_014_faircombat.zip

Just unzip it as usual, overwriting stuff. You can put this over Fall From Heaven 2 023c with or without Smarter Orcs installed; it includes all the files also in the Smarter Orcs install (to make it easier to install). So essentially, if you have an untouched Fall From Heaven 2 023c installed, just unzip this over it.
 
Monarch (and up) difficulty, raging barbs, AND epic speed? I am so gonna get owned :)

That's also kind of a rough start, though the three towers might mean I will survive the barbs. For a little while. I'm curious whether people will settle in place. I'd be tempted to move NW to get the grassland cow and both vines for early commerce. Plus those techs take me toward BW and HBR, which I'd try to get early on a crowded map.

Anyway, are we talking strats here, or should I just wait and post my (probably very short!) game? Should be fun!
 
At the risk of sounding lame: could you maybe post a screenshot of the starting pos with resource flags? (ctrl+r) I'm so used to playing with them that I'm having a hard time identifying what resources there are without them.
 
At the risk of sounding lame: could you maybe post a screenshot of the starting pos with resource flags? (ctrl+r) I'm so used to playing with them that I'm having a hard time identifying what resources there are without them.

Seconded. Maybe even the cluttered "settler view". Sometimes it's hard to make the difference between a plain-hill-forest and a tundra-hill-forest, etc.

Also, Id really like to try this feature with MAX_HIT_POINTS, I'm really fond of the idea of actually being able to do (little) damages more often to very powerful units, sometimes it took me over 15 warriors to get rid of Orthus. Needless to say, if your stack is not big enough with Orthus on the first try, you;re screwed, as the XP gotten will make him twice stronger and you'll need a stack thrice bigger to just have a chance.

Anyways, discussing this point is kinda off-topic, but would it really really a big heinous crime to have some players free to use it if they want ? Its not like its a contest like in cIV GOTM. :)

To the topic: I would settle one tile north, to get the two wines.
It would mean trading one tundra and one plain-hill for one grass-hill (with wine) and one desert - cant work Mana and cant work Mountain. Unless the plain hill had some valuable resource like copper or iron, it's definitely a good move IMO. I wouldn't move NW to grab the cows because the tile swapping isn't looking so good: grass/grass-forest/grass-hill-forest for grass-cow/plain-forest/plain-hill. It's not an unfair swap, but there's a catch with running angry barbs: the river would protect me from 5 tiles, giving me a strong defensive bonus. Also, the three tiles on my bank of the river are open field, making barbarians more vulnerable to counter-attack when they come close to me. Ill put farm on the three grassy tiles on the east, more open land and with just sheep-wine-wine, the city's gonna need them to pop settlers.

Soon enough, Ill find myself with a capital well balanced between food gold and production, which is often something I like for a capital to keep my options more open, and since its going to stay my best city for a while, better be adaptative.

For the units move, Ill ignore the hut south-east, it can wait till my borders pop them, a second scout or the scout to come back (If it ever does :P). I found that they tend to give gold rather than anything else 99% of times using this method, but meh, I can use teh gold. Moreover, most urgent matter would be to get rid of the barrow and the ruins. Even an early tech-pop cant save you of an unexpected lizardman hanging around your cities.

So: Scout to ruins in 4 turns, through the jungle-hills, not the hut (which is going to wait one more turn for the sake of +25% just in case). Then to the tower, then to the closer hut, if nothing sexier (like another hut :P) on the east.
Warrior to barrow, then to SW tower, then back home where I build a scout to go NW.
First research, crafting :D
 
Ooooh, this is awesome. I definately want to give this a shot but can someone give me a brief overview of what to expect from the Smarter Orcs mod? I don't have time to play a few games to get used to it but I'd rather not find out too late that I need to change my play strategy to accommodate it.
 
Ooooh, this is awesome. I definately want to give this a shot but can someone give me a brief overview of what to expect from the Smarter Orcs mod? I don't have time to play a few games to get used to it but I'd rather not find out too late that I need to change my play strategy to accommodate it.

In short: Smarter Orcs merges Blake's Better AI with FFH, adding some FFH specific things. The AI performs much better and you can rely on the city governor most of the time even. Some flavoring has been implemented to make certain AI civilizations research stuff that makes sense for them (for instance, Luchuirp go toward Construction much more quickly; similarly for Calabim and their Vampire tech (was it Aristocracy?) etc). The AI will also not go down the magic branches (or not far, in the case of the Sheaim); this was done simply because the AI's usage of magic at this point is such that the AI tends to handicap itself by investing beakers into magic techs.

Overall I find the AI quite a bit more difficult to handle; in singleplayer games I had to shift down one or two difficulties compared to vanilla FFH.

Smarter Orcs also fixes a few combat bugs that were in 023c (for more details, see this post from xanaqui).

Regarding fairer combat, this is something that developed out of this thread. If you don't want to read it, here's the summary: combat in civ4 is too random. This is worse in FFH where your overall strength concentrates in fewer units (due to magic, stronger promotions, heroes, combat enabled national units etc). Randomness means two things: weak units can defeat much stronger units and stronger units have a good chance to emerge undamaged from a combat with a weaker unit. Of course this all evens out over a very large number of combats, but since some combats (e.g. defense of your capital) are more important than other combats (e.g. attacking a spider with your hunter), the randomness introduces an element of frustration.

With fair combat enabled, you can predict the outcome of most combats. A str 4 unit will always win against a strength 2 unit, and the strength 4 unit will never win that combat unscathed. This allows you to plan ahead strategically with much greater precision. Originally introduced to make multiplayer games more fun (losing unlosable combats was always VERY frustrating to one player), I must admit that I cannot even play single player without it anymore. It's just ******** to log a hero around with your army but never use him because the odds aren't good enough.


Okay, enough OT already :)

I think I'm going to settle in the riverbend two tiles west of the south wine resource; not just because of the cow, but also because that way I'll have two hills in my fat cross and without those my capital won't have enough production. Also, who knows what else is to the west ;)
 
You mean to say EXPERIENCE POINTS? ;P
 
I really like the river bend defensive position idea, so I'm going to move the settler one tile north to settle even though there's a wasted tile in one mountain. Isn't there a spell to lower mountains anyways? The warrior moves SW to take out the barrow and the scout moves NE to take out the other spawn point and hit the village.

Then I think that manning the two towers will be important to keep the raging barbs spawning away, so I will leave my capital undefended at first and put the warrior on the SW tower and the scout on the E tower. Hopefully the warrior will start intercepting goblins from the wastelands. Gods know I'll never settle down there...

I plan to build two warriors, plant the first in the city and send the second to the third, as yet unmanned NW tower to earn experience to become a better defender for my second city, which will be planted somewhere NW along the river.

Depending on how long the river is I could make a whole string of cities along it. Then the raging barbs will never be able to take out my trade network. The bastids.

Edit: Oh, by the way, would it be frowned upon to use another civilization for this? Is the whole point to have the exact same civ and map for everyone, or just the same map? I have a home-made elven civilization that I really like to play.
 
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