No Room for Combat Strategy - With Civ You Meet Rock-Em Sock-Em Robots, High-Tech

acd

Chieftain
Joined
Apr 5, 2005
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There definitely needs to be zones of control for purposes of supply. One needs to be able to gain a significant advantage for surrounding one's enemy troops in combat.

In contradiction to my previous position on the subject, I can see a distinct advantage to phases.

A friendly movement/combat

An enemy defensive combat

A second friendly movement for motorized units or cavalry units.

Or, something like that...

The way it is now, its just BORING and unrealistic. You can't formulate much of any combative strategy with this game past build, build, build, attack attack attack. Yuck.
 
Well I am not sure about your solutions - but the problem is sure real

Combat success needs to focus more on combined arms (particularly in the modern era) and less on SOD's
 
The one thing they desperately need to add is a decent supply & logistics model. Maintaining supply and/or cutting the enemy off of his source has, historically, been a major concern for many a battlefield commander.
 
I'm not sure about the specifics with regard to phase, but one thing is for certain and that is the combative format needs depth. There is little or no room for composing a war strategy on the battlefield. Its very one dimensional and amounts to build as many units as you can and attack. I would never recommend this game to a wargame hobbyist past the element of novelty. Its poor, and its very apparent that the programmer/designer have little or no wargame experience. If they do, they obviously didn't learn anything.
 
acd said:
I would never recommend this game to a wargame hobbyist
Civ is not a wargame. A more complicated battle system would alienate some of the more casual Civ-fans, which means you are not going find a wargame hidden away inside Civ as long as the developers want it to remain a major product.
 
Vael, that has to be the most obtuse response to a very clear issue. The combat system is, although I don't agree with the fact, 80% + of the game. Even if war were 5% of the game, it still needs a workable and realistic combat system. Alienate game fans with a few simple adjustments to make it realistic and FUN? I don't think so. As a matter of fact, the population you are speaking of wouldn't even know there is an intelligent aspect to planning war. Strategy is the name of the game, and so that's why it has to be fixed. Otherwise, it will find a nice home in most gamers trashcan. As far as the adolescent fans who think its cute and exciting to see the little robots run around and grunt - well, what can you say but - that's nice. Make sure they don't stay up too late on a school nite.
 
Volstag said:
The one thing they desperately need to add is a decent supply & logistics model. Maintaining supply and/or cutting the enemy off of his source has, historically, been a major concern for many a battlefield commander.

The problem with this is that Civilization's battle system (and map system) has historically been a broad model, covering 10-100 miles per tile. It would also involve too much micromanagement, which I think they're trying to get rid of. Read Soren's presentation from awhile back (I'm not sure where it is, but it might be referenced in one of the sticky threads). You'll see what the goals are.
 
The game World at War (www.worldatwaronline.com) makes supply and logistics a fundamental (I would go so far as to say the fundamental) factor in combat while still being managable. It does add another layer of stuff you have to balance and do however.
 
acd said:
Vael, that has to be the most obtuse response to a very clear issue.
Your belligerence will not win you or your ideas any fans. If you do not wish to engage in polite discussion I recommend you post somewhere else.

The combat system is, although I don't agree with the fact, 80% + of the game. Even if war were 5% of the game, it still needs a workable and realistic combat system. Alienate game fans with a few simple adjustments to make it realistic and FUN? I don't think so.
The combat system is workable. If it wasn't workable then you'd find people complaining everywhere about it and people not buying the game. I'm not seeing that. Whether its realistic or not is another issue, but it is based on reality. No, there are not logistics, no, there is not morale, no, there isn't 'x' in the game. The reason those aren't in the game is because the game designers have decided not to include them. On purpose.

As a matter of fact, the population you are speaking of wouldn't even know there is an intelligent aspect to planning war. Strategy is the name of the game, and so that's why it has to be fixed. Otherwise, it will find a nice home in most gamers trashcan. As far as the adolescent fans who think its cute and exciting to see the little robots run around and grunt - well, what can you say but - that's nice. Make sure they don't stay up too late on a school nite.
I hate to break it to you, but Civilization is a game for the masses. It is not aimed at hardcore strategy fans. Thus saying that targeting at the former group is going to send Civ to "most gamers trashcan" is an oxymoron. Games sell more when they're aimed at a broader audience.

Every Civ game has sold more than the last. Civ 3 plus expansions sold over 2.5 million copies making it a mega-hit. I think the series is doing just fine without the things you cite as so terribly vital.
 
Whatever Vael. Your either feigned or natural density regarding the issue is, regardless, unwelcome. If you consider that belligerent, I really don't care. I call it like I see it, and I'm not out to insult nor flatter. The issue is as it is, and the game is what they make it. If they want to make it for numbskulls then, yes, there is a large population to tap into. However, the wargamer population is a better bet. As I said, a few minor adjustments to the combat system, and which would go unnoticed by yourself, would make a world of difference to people who actually know how to plan a war campaign through simulation.
 
acd said:
Whatever Vael. Your either feigned or natural density regarding the issue is, regardless, unwelcome. If you consider that belligerent, I really don't care. I call it like I see it, and I'm not out to insult nor flatter. The issue is as it is, and the game is what they make it. If they want to make it for numbskulls then, yes, there is a large population to tap into. However, the wargamer population is a better bet.
Better bet for what? Not money. There is a reason why most 'wargames' these days are RTS games like Rome: Total War. Those that aren't don't sell very well. Why? Because the average Joe doesn't want to worry about logistics, he wants to see 10,000 men maul each other on screen.

Apparently the current "numbskull" population is good enough for the owners of the franchise, as it's now 14 years old and never included the changes you've proposed. I would not suggest holding one's breath for the next title.

As I said, a few minor adjustments to the combat system, and which would go unnoticed by yourself, would make a world of difference to people who actually know how to plan a war campaign through simulation.
I have played many wargames and don't appreciate you putting words in my mouth. I've not once mentioned what I personally prefer.
 
@ACD- I suggest you decide to argue your points by logic and fact not name calling.

@Vael: There are two main kinds of civ players:

*Peace-lovers, who try to make survive the game and win through non-militaristic means.
*Conquest-Those who use civ to perfect techniques to take over the world.

However, most players enjoy the challenge of expansion through military. The military action is where most of the game takes place and where most of the gains take place. Most players brag about conqueoring a nation, not about producing the most cash in the world.
 
The notion that a more dynamic combat system would be hang-up for people who want a wargame without any dimensions to what a wargame entails is just not so. Like I said, for the 3rd time, there are small adjustments that would largely go unnoticed by the wargamer (as if that's an issue) and which would make a world of difference to the person who actually knows how to play wargames. Adding supply wouldn't cause any problems in LOGISTICS. You either maintain it or you don't. Does making a city a natural defensive position cause you any LOGISTICS problems? No - LMAO. Your argument is founded upon a false premise. Do you work for sales or something? I ask because you come across as overly defensive with a prefabbed argument that has no basis in the reality of play. IOW, what you say sounds good, but it has no substance along the lines of what I'm referring to. And, I do have better things to do than defend the obvious and while dealing with your strawman arguments, so this is my last response to you directly.

Some other things that are in need:
Phases - Defensive fire, movement/Combat, additional movement/combat for cav and mech. or something to that effect would involve more strategy.
An arenas for air combat such that you can fight for and maintain (IOW - know if you have) air superiority in a particular air space.
The Greek Phallanx! Now that is sorely missing. Alexander the Great wouldn't be too great without those. I like how the game depicts Pikemen tearing up the Horsemen, but the Phallanx would devastate any cavalry units, and short of perhaps mounted riflemen.
 
However, most players enjoy the challenge of expansion through military. The military action is where most of the game takes place and where most of the gains take place. Most players brag about conqueoring a nation, not about producing the most cash in the world.

That's because conquest victories is very well captured by the scoring system. The more successful wars you wage, the higher your score goes. Many people are conditioned to implicitly do things that get them the highest score, the biggest army or the most land. All of which are easy to measure and easy to appreciate. The more subtle art of diplomacy is neglected because it's so hard to appreciate it. I for one enjoy being the trading power.

Reading game reports from various luminaries of the community that in fact, the builder/warmonger dichotomy is highly simplistic. Many players enjoy playing the influence game and all the cold war pawn playing that comes with it.

Just a quick response to a few points mentioned by other posters:

With regards to combined arms, this is an announced feature in Civ4 where the use of combined arms will be ENCOURAGED although you can still build 300 tanks to ram your oppoents if you'd like, but it probably just wont be very efficient. I agree with this kind of fix, as opposed to a heavy handed approach of forcing players to adhere by combined arms.

With regards to logistics to warfare. A big NO THANKS from me. What we need is more depth in military conflicts, not more micromagement. Perhaps the only aspect of logistics I would support is fixing RR so that it does not have both unlimited capacity and unlimited movement.

The current 'popular' suggestion is to decouple roads and railroads. Roads will upgrade to highways instead with another movement bonus as well as the usual late game commerce and food bonuses previously given to railroads. Railroads on the other hand will have a capacity limit and may be much more difficult to build and perhaps cost gold to maintain, thus making it impractical to railroad your entire empire.

With a capacity system in place, there would be somewhat more strategic placement of troops and naturally, the logistics of supplying a war deep into enemy territory would be a bigger issue than it currently is.
 
I played the game the whole way through. I didn't have a major military conflict until the modern Tech era. All the AI would do is put a huge stack of armor as deep inside my country as it could. I would blow it up, and then next turn would be the same thing. It went on like that for 10 turns and looked never ending and I quit. It was the most ridiculous BORING game I've ever played EVER. It was beyond stupid. It was infantile. So yes, fixing the RR would be a big help. If there was such a thing as supply, driving your entire armored army 500 miles or so into enemy territory with absolutely no cover, no flanks, no captured cities - nothing, wouldn't be smart. As a matter of fact it wouldn't work, unless you get food, gasoline and bullets by osmosis. Its a shame. I was actually enjoying this game as a great accomplishment until I saw just how disabled the combat system is. I wont play again unless they fix it. I hope they do.
 
RR Note: Unlimited movement by rail, but units who move by rail can't then move by land nor road. They must stop wherever on the rail they travel until their next turn. As far as rail capacity, that is something you should have to build as part of you industry. RR that falls into enemy hands shouldn't be usable by either side until its rebuilt. Destroying roads and rail lines is what all retreating armies do historically, as far as I know.
 
RTS Wargames

In an RTS, they drastically simplify issues like food, happiness, and research. Food is strictly there as a limitation for what size army you can make. There's no such things as happiness or unhappiness, your soldiers will march into battle one by one getting mauled down if those are your orders. And research is strictly a question of upgrading your weapons.

Of course, by simplifying these issues, an RTS can afford to be a bit more intricate with combat. If an RTS is balanced properly, there's a complex system of relationships between the units, with no obvious "best" unit despite having a dozen or so unit types for each player. "I'm going to focus on building tanks! ... but what if he has lots of air units? My tanks would be screwed! Maybe a tank and anti-aircraft combo..."

... not to mention that the number of troops are much more fine in an RTS. One soldier really is one soldier, and thus, formations can be more complex.

Learning from RTSes

Note, you must be well aware of the assumption that Civilization 4 will be equally as complex as Civilization 3. For everything they add, they have to take something away. For each game play lick they make more sophisticated, they have to simplify another game play lick.

I think Civ could take this kind of route... To make room for new military concepts, you'd drastically simplify other concepts. You could drastically simplify cities as centers of military production. No more temples and marketplaces, but more of an RTS model where there are 4 upgrade stages for your "City Center" (Ancient, Middle, Industrial, Modern). Research could be overhauled where every technology was a military technology, getting more unit types out of the deal.

But I think this would be a disaster.

Civilization is not a war game. I think you could, theoretically, make it the best Turn-Based War Game out there. But it would still be a Turn Based War game in a market of Real Time War Games. When it comes to war, a broad audience demands fast action, which Turn-Based cannot provide. Civilization would be called "a slow version of Age of Empires".

You could complete the final step for this hypothetical "Civilization War Game" and make it an RTS. But then you ultimately lose ANY competitive advantage that Civilization has over other strategy games -- both turn based and real time. The only remaining advantages are (1) Civilization's name, and (2) Civilization's scale -- spanning from the first settlements to the information age. And even #2 is being done by a few RTS War Games.

Without a competitive advantage, your product will make no money.

The Real Lesson

Civilization ought to emphasize the things that no other game is doing. That's why making peace more sophisticated makes so much sense. There ARE lots of people who would love to brag about dominating the world through culture, or diplomacy, or economics.

But to bring it back full circle, about combat strategy...

There IS hope for Civilization to make improvements to combat, too. But it can't be anything that adds another layer of management to combat.

That still leaves lots of things, including three that came up already in this thread.

- Cutting out railroad teleportation (e.g: capacity system, or 1/9 movement RRs)
- Multiple phases (e.g.: building phase, movement phase, combat phase)
- Combined arms (e.g.: bonuses when mixing unit types in a stack)

All of those involve players doing BASICALLY the same things they did in Civilization 3, and still making the same decisions about what to build and where to move. Just a bit more thought for those smart enough to take advantage of them.
 
dh_epic said:
Civilization is not a war game. I think you could, theoretically, make it the best Turn-Based War Game out there. But it would still be a Turn Based War game in a market of Real Time War Games.

I agree with you, nearly totally. The turn based war game is not dead, though. It is an admittedly minor niche market were sales of 10,000 copies is considered good for a game that get 95% ratings in the magazines, but it is there. If people really want that kind of game, they should go to www.matrixgames.com
 
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