No TnL => Black Terrain? Maybe Not.

[ZenQuest]

I have a laptop with the Intel 855GME chipset which, as every post in this forum notes, does not have TnL. I got the game yesterday and, like everyone else who has such a chipset, was profoundly disappointed that it didn't work on my system. Actually, it runs smoothly enough and doesn't crash, but I experience the black terrain and chesire cat problems.

Despite being pissed off, I decided to try and play the game with black terrain. What the hell, my $50 is gone now anyhow. So, it was playable, but sucked because you had to mouse over all the territory to look at terrain details. However, after about 4 hours of playing, a strange thing started to happen. In the upper right-hand corner of the screen, terrain started showing up! As I continued to play, the terrain viewable area grew larger and larger. By the time I stopped playing, nearly half my screen was displaying the terrain!

And this wasn't a fog of war effect. It didn't matter where on the (explored) map I went. The area in the upper right-hand corner had terrain, even over enemy territory. (with the normal lack of sight of enemy units) The terrain that showed up looked perfect, with the boundary lines, etc. (It may not have had shadows...I don't remember)

So, I can verify that the rendering of terrain on this chipset IS possible. I have not a single clue as to why it didn't work at the beginning of the game or why the renderable area got larger and larger during the game. But, if Firaxis refuses to fix this bug saying the graphics card doesn't work, I'll be really upset. The card CAN render the terrain. I've seen it. The game just doesn't always do it right. Perhaps this is due to some atmosphere they put on the map in the early stages, but I doubt it, since that wouldn't explain why the renderable area followed me around and was always in the same spot in my viewable screen.

I haven't re-opened my saved game yet to see if the "viewport" that I got last night is still there, but I will try when I get home from work and report the results here. I'm now more hopeful that there can be a fix to this...if Firaxis chooses to acknowledge the problem.

 

[chriseay]

This is true, and if you play on a smaller map, eventually you will be able to see everything. Also, you can turn the map to always visible, which also seems to correct the problem. Since the game is eminently playable (and gosh darn fun!!) on my system, just with the half exploration bug, I really hope Firaxis can find a way to fix this. I have a laptop, so I can't upgrade my graphics, but my processor and ram are plenty sufficient. I suppose I'll just keep playing with the world visible to me until this gets fixed.

 

[ZenQuest]

This is true, and if you play on a smaller map, eventually you will be able to see everything. Also, you can turn the map to always visible, which also seems to correct the problem. ... I suppose I'll just keep playing with the world visible to me until this gets fixed.

I will try this out tonight. It does seem weird that this would be the same issue as me, though, because mine wasn't a problem based on where I was on the map. The viewing area moved with me to all areas of the map. The hidden/explored areas were properly hidden/visible but only in the upper right 40% of the screen.

However, this bug is totally strange to me, so you may well be right.

 

[TheBarnacle]

I have a laptop with the Intel 855GME chipset which, as every post in this forum notes, does not have TnL. I got the game yesterday and, like everyone else who has such a chipset, was profoundly disappointed that it didn't work on my system. Actually, it runs smoothly enough and doesn't crash, but I experience the black terrain and chesire cat problems.

i have intel 8xxx chipset. i did the same thing last night (that is, played despite the black terrain and chesire leaders). i didn't play long enough to see the terrain revealed. however, i dropped $70 for a GeForce 5200 and it DOES show the terrain/leaders from the start. though, the gameplay is really choppy and slow.

however, i'm not sure the intel problem will ever be 'fixed'. intel admits that their chipsets CAN'T run T&L, but that the processing can be worked around. so...some games simply won't play right....ever.


"Intel® graphics products do not have hardware support for T&L. In most games, transform and lighting calculations can be performed on the processor with acceptable performance. A small number of games that specifically check for hardware T&L support may fail to run.

This applies to: Intel® 82810 Graphics Controller
Intel® 82815 Graphics Controller
Intel® 82830M Graphics Controller
Intel® 82845G Graphics Controller
Intel® 82852/82855 Graphics Controller Family
Intel® 82865G Graphics Controller
Intel® 82915G/82910GL Express Chipset Family
Mobile Intel® 915GM/GMS, 910GML Express Chipset Family "

http://www.intel.com/support/graphics/sb/CS-011910.htm

 

[ZenQuest]

intel admits that their chipsets CAN'T run T&L, but that the processing can be worked around. so...some games simply won't play right....ever.

Yes, I understand that, but it was working later in the game...so it isn't that it can't do it or that it won't do it. (I saw it do it.) I would say it doesn't do it...until later in the game.

 

[Xeos]

I had this problem on my laptop before I updated my drivers. What I think was going on was that what you can view of the map was centered offscreen in comparison to the camera, and when you explored so a part of that came into the camera view, it revealed that part. If you go to the worldbuilder and reveal all tiles, you can probably see all the terrain from the start.

 

[ZenQuest]

What I think was going on was that what you can view of the map was centered offscreen in comparison to the camera, and when you explored so a part of that came into the camera view, it revealed that part. If you go to the worldbuilder and reveal all tiles, you can probably see all the terrain from the start.

Yeah, the off-center camera thing sounds reasonable as an explanation. I will try the revealing all tiles thing tonight.

 

[tutankamon]

sorry, but how do you reveal the whole map?

 

[TheBarnacle]

Yes, I understand that, but it was working later in the game...so it isn't that it can't do it or that it won't do it. (I saw it do it.) I would say it doesn't do it...until later in the game.

well, i'm no technophile, so i'm really not that informed about these things, but the way i see all this intel chipset mess is this:

while your card COULD (eventually) do T & L, the maker flat out says their hardware doesn't support it. so...i guess, in a very lame analogy, it'd be like saying i COULD pitch in the major leagues -- because i can throw a baseball -- and my 60 mph fastball might actually make a better whiff, once. but it'd would NEVER EVER truly succeed at that level b/c my hardware (rag arm) simply doesn't support a 93 mph heater.

my point is, at some point (later in the game) there seems to be some threshold that actually gets the T&L to work on the intel chip. but you can never go beyond that threshold. hardware is simply limited.

mind you, this is all theory on my part since i have no technical clue as to why any of this is/isn't working. i'm able to see all the terrain and leaders now with the fx5200 card i popped in, but the game is still unplayable b/c it's so damn slow and choppy. no fun.

in fact, maybe this will help someone, when i was playing with my intel 8xx, i couldn't render the t&l stuff, but the game played faster -- though, still had chop at opening movie. now that i can render the stuff, it's much slower and choppier. is that a driver/card issue still? or something else i wonder...

 

[TheBarnacle]

I had this problem on my laptop before I updated my drivers. What I think was going on was that what you can view of the map was centered offscreen in comparison to the camera, and when you explored so a part of that came into the camera view, it revealed that part. If you go to the worldbuilder and reveal all tiles, you can probably see all the terrain from the start.

i believe someone in another thread said this is true. however not sure what card they were using (so i don't know if it was an intel problem or ati since some of the ati cards were having the problem even though they were capable of rendering).

 

[ZenQuest]

my point is, at some point (later in the game) there seems to be some threshold that actually gets the T&L to work on the intel chip. but you can never go beyond that threshold. hardware is simply limited.

Maybe, but it does seem odd to me. I had at least 50% of the screen showing textures by the time I stopped. Why should my graphics card care how far I've progressed in the game? If it were that the card could only render 50% of a screen, then why not 50% from the beginning? Maybe the terrain textures change during the game. And it couldn't do early ones, but can do 50% of late ones. Unfortunately, I don't know if they change, since I can't see them at the beginning.

In any case, I'm suspicious of the idea that the card can't do it...the way that it grew out of the corner after playing for so long was just too odd to be a hardware issue.

 

[opticaljim]

I don't know if this is a similar problem or the same problem described in a different way:

When I explore the land that I discovered turns back into darkness as soon as my units pass through it.

Therefore, my units keeps going around in circles rediscovering the same terrain.

Also, the inroductory movie skips. I'm wondering if this is related and something to do with a "graphic card".

 

[TheBarnacle]

Maybe, but it does seem odd to me. I had at least 50% of the screen showing textures by the time I stopped. Why should my graphics card care how far I've progressed in the game? If it were that the card could only render 50% of a screen, then why not 50% from the beginning? Maybe the terrain textures change during the game. And it couldn't do early ones, but can do 50% of late ones. Unfortunately, I don't know if they change, since I can't see them at the beginning.

In any case, I'm suspicious of the idea that the card can't do it...the way that it grew out of the corner after playing for so long was just too odd to be a hardware issue.

well, i don't know that the card recognizes a % of the screen it can render. rather, a fixed number of memory or computing power (or something...whatever it takes to render). but this may be why other people suggested it's more a fog o' war issue than rendering. and your experience might validate that notion. if you can't render until 'x' amount is visible (not fogged), then that might make sense. this might be why some folks got it to work by removing the fog completely -- though, i'm not sure whether they were on intel chip or not.

all i can tell you is, changing nothing else BUT the card, i solved the T&L problems (chesire cat, etc.). but of course, this brought about different problems. i'm so damn impatient, i should've waited to see what cards worked before buying a new one that i didn't really "need" in the first place! duh!!!

 

[rube203]

if you can't render until 'x' amount is visible (not fogged), then that might make sense.

This makes the most sense compared to my experiences. I have a laptop that meets the minimum requirements, all except the TnL. I have an Intel 8xxx graphics chipset. Yes, I get the black terrain and the chesire cat grins. However in the first game (I had low graphics set in the options), after exploring for a little while the top left corner started appearing and then was followed SLOWLY by the rest of the screen as the game progress until at some point I saw the whole screen. In the second game I had the graphics set to high, and didn't see any of the screen appear until I traded maps with someone. It may have been that I didn't explore as much, not sure... but my experiences definately suggest that a patch could be made to at least work around this issue. Also note that even when the terrain was visiable it was not as bright and clear as on my wife's desktop.

 

[TheBarnacle]

Also note that even when the terrain was visiable it was not as bright and clear as on my wife's desktop.

which would seem to indicate an underlying issue. i'm just guessing...and trying to justify the $70 i dropped for a new vid card that STILL doesn't let me play the game very well.

 

[rube203]

which would seem to indicate an underlying issue. i'm just guessing...and trying to justify the $70 i dropped for a new vid card that STILL doesn't let me play the game very well.

Well obviously there is still going to be an underlying issue if you have an Intell 8xxxx since it does not support TnL. We will most likely always have the eyes and mouth of the leaders instead of the faces and have graphics that don't look as good. And if I could upgrade my graphics card I would. However, my point is that it appears to me like there could be a patch to fix the black terrain for non-TnL cards

 

[TheBarnacle]

Well obviously there is still going to be an underlying issue if you have an Intell 8xxxx since it does not support TnL. We will most likely always have the eyes and mouth of the leaders instead of the faces and have graphics that don't look as good. And if I could upgrade my graphics card I would. However, my point is that it appears to me like there could be a patch to fix the black terrain for non-TnL cards

i guess. but frankly, considering that they've come out and stated T&L as a system req, i hope they concentrate on other fixes before this one.

 

[allism]

i guess. but frankly, considering that they've come out and stated T&L as a system req, i hope they concentrate on other fixes before this one.

You're making the assumption that the lack of T&L is what's causing this. I hope they figure out what is causing this before they write it off as a hardware problem.

 

[huntunc]

I have the intel chip thingie too. Read yesterday on a thread here that if you into a certain file where you can change all the technologies to actually reveal the entire map, just like when you discover satellite (I guess this was my first successful attempt at a mod of anything in my life). This makes the game playable, not as fun b/c you already know all of the terrain, but it'll stay under fog of war. About 1am this morning I started to get the lit up tiles in the upper corner and they eventaully moved around the screen, at one time I'd say I actually had over half the screen looking normal.

Does anyone have a clue what could be causing this or how it can be fixed? Not sure what ya'll are talking about with the camera centering stuff.

 

[ZenQuest]

After finishing my game last night, I'm totally behind the "camera centering problem" hypothesis for black terrain. After getting sattelites, I had the a similar same thing happen in the upper right-hand corner...FoW gone only in upper-right corner, but it would be gone anywhere on the map I looked. (as long as I looked in the corner of the screen)

Not sure why it only does this on some video cards and not others...perhaps a math issue that they are trying to calculate on the graphics chip, but it seems to me this is totally fixable, if they can be bothered to do so. Fixing this makes everything fine for me. I have the Chesire Cat problem too, but who really cares about that...just look at their teeth.