Nobles' Club 287: Mao Zedong of China

[konata_LS]

@krikav

Spoiler :

Nice gambit of moving the settler! Settling on Ivory and getting wet Corn in BFC are surely worth 1 turn .

Trading Aesthetics around delayed AIs' nasty catapults, but it also led them to a nasty culture bomb .

I guess you may like this map, as you enjoy Medieval warfare .

@Araius

Spoiler :

Judging from the screenshots, your situation seems good!

Forgetting to change civics also happens to me. Sometimes when the game ends, I realise I run Paganism during the whole game .

 

[krikav]

Anyone have any good things to say about how to use the UU? Just like suicide catapults?

@civac You seem to know everything! Do you know how to best use Chu-Ku-Nus ?

 

[civac]

I have been unimpressed by Chu-Ko-Nus so far but I don't like crossbows much in general. They are probably a mean defensive weapon. I don't know if and how you use them offensively.

They are the only unit type that can inflict collateral off boats which can be useful maybe. They can also inflict collateral on machine guns which is probably less useful but funny.

Edit (some mechanics info): Chu-Ko-Nus have a higher theoretical collateral damage limit (60%?). However, their collateral strength value is only 3 compared to 5 for catapults. (All siege units have collateral strength equal to their combat strength I think.) Collateral damage per hit is lower for Chu-Ko-Nus than catapults due to their lower collateral strength. Real max damage comes to about the same since that gets scaled with a factor depending on collateral strength and the base strength of the 'collateralled' unit.

 

[Qactus]

Anyone have any good things to say about how to use the UU? Just like suicide catapults?
...

When I use Cho-Ko-Nu, I get them via Oracle Metal Casting->Forge (Engineer)->bulb Machinery.
Obviously Qin is much better suited for this path than Mao (cheap forge plus a few hammers off the Oracle).
CKN then start conquering while I beeline Engineering. I don't build any Catapults. Trebs are available exactly when the emergence of Longbows and higher city defenses would cause unacceptable losses to pure CKN stacks.
Think of it as a slightly slower Engineering beeline, only that by the time you reach it you've already conquered two AI.
Note:
This is my experience on Immortal. Don't know about the viability on Deity.
On this particular map a few things probably make CKN not the best path:
- Availability of Elephants, making Construction the easier and safer (no iron required) alternative
- You probably want AH, making Oracle play questionable
- Mao instead of Qin (expensive forge)

 

[krikav]

I use x-bows alot, they are completely awesome in medieval warfare.
However, they are there for stack protection, and they go in after a tsunami of trebuchets have done alot of softening up of cities, and in that case the extra collateral seems redundant.
Perhaps one Chu-ku-nu cover-promoted should go in first before suicide catapults to make sure the top defending longbow is also damaged, but that seems abit lackluster.

 

[civac]

Well yes, they are stack protectors but not very good ones. They only barely beat a maceman and the collateral damage required to turn the matchup around is minor. I suppose they can defend a knight stack vs pikes. They have a decent window where they are very good if you can bulb machinery or get it quickly otherwise.

 

[Qactus]

@krikav I browsed my old savegames and here's an example of a game where I went the CKN beeline as described above. The save is one or two turns after Engineering came in, meaning from then on I focused on Trebs for the remaining opponents. Statistics show that 9 out of 28 CKN were lost, conquering 9 cities. I think that this is pretty efficient given no Catapults were used. Again, this is only Immortal, so you might encounter just too many defenders on Deity and/or earlier Longbows.

 

[soundjata]

When I use Cho-Ko-Nu, I get them via Oracle Metal Casting->Forge (Engineer)->bulb Machinery.

In this scenario, it should take 34 turns (100/3) to breed a great engineer...
It is a long time, while Machinery is just one tech away from Metal Casting. What to do in the meantime

An alternative scenario could be :
1. Have stone / industrious leader
2. Rush mids (and start gathering 2 great engineer points / turn)
3. Beeline Metal Casting (avoid writing)
4. Get a forge to increase GE points to 5/turn

Maybe scenario 2 is superior to 1 in case of stone available (assuming Qin Shi Huang Di)?

 

[krikav]

Isn't it much easier to bulb machinery with a scientist?
Just need to avoid fishing.

 

[Henrik75]

Settle one tile north or NW (if warr reveals nothing to the east) would be my pick. AH BW Pottery Writing would be my guess from starting image. Seems like something I'd play on deity since it's a generous start.

 

[dontworryabouttsunami]

Wow, I'm having a blast on this map! China's starting techs are *chef kiss* "mwa"! It's not every day you can go AH -> BW right away.

Spoiler starting area :

And have 2 six yield & 1 five yield tiles + the ability to chop immediately (settled 1N). I don't think my worker was ever idle. It was a lightning fast start and the pace hasn't slackened yet. I'll post a more detailed report later.

Spoiler To turn 133 (Immortal, no huts) :

After BW I went TW - Pottery and quickly got a settler out to establish control of the eastern pass between China and Viking land, and to grab Gold and Copper (and deny Copper to Ragnar).



If I'd known about the Wheat in the mountains I would have settled 1N, but what can you do. It's an OK city with a bunch of farms, and I later got a nice mountain city with the Wheat, Sheep, Fur and Deer all in the first ring.

Having Copper so early made me think of taking Ragnar out with Axes, but I had some barb issues to take care of and I suffered a major setback, losing an Axe on a forested hill when a barb Archer attacked it (maybe it was just a bare hill...) I also didn't want to miss the western Copper/Gold site, which I settled T58.


Oh yeah, I had a close run-in with the barbs over there! I managed to get a second warrior there in time to save the city, and Mansa even came to my rescue, defending my city with his Skirmisher! Thanks Manny!

That gave me enough room to end up expanding to six cities (with room for a seventh filler city in the middle)



I beat all the Immortal AIs except Mansa to Alphabet and traded it for IW, Math and Masonry. I knew Ragnar would be an issue sooner or later, shut up in his barren coast with only me to attack, so I decided to deal with him on my own terms and teched Construction.

I had given him enough time to hook up his northern Iron, so he already had a little bit of a stack waiting for me in his border town, but it was nothing 8 cats and 8 swords couldn't handle. After that the war was pretty smooth sailing, though he did manage to snipe my beautiful city of Guangzhou with a couple of chariots that struck from Malinese land. I had some Spears in the area and was able to retake it the next turn, but that's not very pro play on my part.

I chased him to his last two tundra cities and called for a cease fire since he was threatening Chengdu with a credible stack. I probably should have just taken peace and gotten whatever tech he can give me, because I want Elizabeth's cities yesterday -- she has some nice wonders including TGL, and she's hated by all the world for being the only Buddhist. Mansa, Bull, and Ragnar are Jewish and I joined Sal and Cathy in the Hindu bloc. I'm planning on heading straight for Engineering next.

It feels like this game is going to be constant war. Domination seems like the fastest and easiest way to win. I'm thinking of taking Steel with Liberalism (if possible; I'm still teching really well despite fighting and expanding, and right now I have a monopoly on Paper) and that might be enough, I might finish the last AIs with Cannons and Elephants or something.

All in all though I feel very good about my position. I'm still new to Immortal but it's felt like Prince this game. Also I'm swimming in happiness resources. Mansa must have given SB Calendar really early and I think I've been able to trade for every happiness resource before Whale. Markets and Forges are each worth +3 for me. I've been whipping a lot but I'd like to start growing Beijing more.

 

[krikav]

I seem to have gotten myself into some trouble...

Spoiler T112 :

From T100, I did some trading and got my hands on monarchy+monotheism+feudalism+CoL+Litterature.
Revolted to HR+Vassalage and whipped a bunch of units (I figued protective 2xp Chukunus was good enough, so infrastructure is extreml light, many cities with only granary. Forges are a distant dream...

Did manage to scramble up a stack, but the turn I declared Sitting bull had aquired longbows. >_<

I also felt obliged to join a phony war against Elizabeth, who went into free religion which ment I lost the friendly status. Cathy scares me and I dont' dare to piss of either her nor Saladin more.

Thank god these cities are not on hills, would have been such a bloodshed.
In snaketown I had to throw away an equal number of units too, even though I bombarded down to 0%.

Then Sitting Bull bribed Mansa on me. :| Now I'm at war with 3 AIs, all which refuses to talk and everyone in the world is annoyed with me.

Falling behind in tech fast. I would be able to recover if I let cities grow though.

Saladin could start to plot at me any turn now too...

I'm contemplating to revolt to Hinduism and possibly start spreading that around. I don't have that many permanent diplo hits with the Hindus and I think pleased would be very much achievable due to HR and later Theocracy.

Maybe revolt into caste+OR, to get that scientist out. Probably no point in bulbing engineering anymore, but a GA would be nice.
But first I probably need to whip more elephants... Mansa has just finished guilds so Knights will likely swarm in soon. The survival of the Chineese empire is at stake!

My army is looking kind of pathetic too... :|

@AcaMetis

Spoiler :

I like the map! It seems some AIs are very much cramped (Ragnars situation was horrible) while Saladin+Cathy is running away. Sitting bulls land also looks so delicious.
Much potential for crazy runaways here.
Not sure how I managed to stumble into such a horrible diplomatic mess, was probably too preoccupied with elepults to pay attention.

Rocky climate and peaks providing chokepoints is also interesting, I like that!

 

[dontworryabouttsunami]

Spoiler :

Rocky climate and peaks providing chokepoints is also interesting, I like that!

Spoiler :

I agree! I love the natural borders and choke points. I think I'll use the Rocky climate more often.

 

[Fippy]

I have been unimpressed by Chu-Ko-Nus so far but I don't like crossbows much in general. They are probably a mean defensive weapon. I don't know if and how you use them offensively.

They are "we can do everything" stacks basically
Hard to attack for AIs with some added mounted protection, no fear of counter-attacks usually.

AIs put all kinds of units into their cities..
first there are some longbows prolly, Chokus can take cover with just 1 promo (and they have 2-3 first strikes).
While they work on the longbows other units get weaker, melee are no match anyways and mounted have no def. bonus.

So after ~3 fights it should be cleanup time.
They have a better winning % than the first Cats (assuming no highly promoted ones yet), and their first strikes make them take less damage on easy fights.
Moderate cost, and can start before Engineering.
No worries about correct stack composition, just more Chokus will never be wrong..

Ofc there's a weakness in no city bombarding, so always attacking into culture without Cats.
Jumbos outshine them, but that's true for almost everything.

 

[AcaMetis]

@krikav

Spoiler :

I like the map! It seems some AIs are very much cramped (Ragnars situation was horrible) while Saladin+Cathy is running away. Sitting bulls land also looks so delicious.
Much potential for crazy runaways here.
Not sure how I managed to stumble into such a horrible diplomatic mess, was probably too preoccupied with elepults to pay attention.

Rocky climate and peaks providing chokepoints is also interesting, I like that!

That was the idea. More Civ IV map generation RNG's idea than mine, admittedly, but either way that was the idea.

Seems like it worked out, too. If perhaps a little too well, in your case .

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

In this scenario, it should take 34 turns (100/3) to breed a great engineer...
It is a long time, while Machinery is just one tech away from Metal Casting. What to do in the meantime

An alternative scenario could be :
1. Have stone / industrious leader
2. Rush mids (and start gathering 2 great engineer points / turn)
3. Beeline Metal Casting (avoid writing)
4. Get a forge to increase GE points to 5/turn

Maybe scenario 2 is superior to 1 in case of stone available (assuming Qin Shi Huang Di)?

Agree. I cannot execute the Oracle-based CKN build order with Mao. The Oracle is 150 production and the forge is 120 production. On immortal/deity the Oracle easily goes before 2000BC (T50). Even on emperor it can go before 1600 BC (T60). I can only do the Oracle-version with Qin because industrious reduces the production cost from 270 to 160.

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

Anyone have any good things to say about how to use the UU? Just like suicide catapults?

@civac You seem to know everything! Do you know how to best use Chu-Ku-Nus ?

Cho-Ku-Nu's are very very versatile! See below for screenshots from an Immortal Pangea game:

Spoiler :

If anyone is interested in trying, I think ChoKuNu + Ancient only is doable on this NC map too.

 

[civac]

Sure but wouldn't that have worked with cats too?

Cho-Ko-Nu can't bombard, inflict less collateral damage than cats and are more expensive. They do have advantages too but still.

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

Sure but wouldn't that have worked with cats too?

Cho-Ko-Nu can't bombard, inflict less collateral damage than cats and are more expensive. They do have advantages too but still.

Sure. That game was more of a limit-testing/role-playing meme, not a serious strategy.

 

[soundjata]

Isn't it much easier to bulb machinery with a scientist?
Just need to avoid fishing.

You'll still need to check Alpha (easy trade vs MC) and Aesthetics (probably self tech) and Math (hope for a trade) prior to the Machinery bulb.

But I agree it should be easier due to the opportunity cost of Pyramids vs expansion/growth...