Nobles' Club 329: Cyrus of Persia

[AcaMetis]

The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

Our next leader is Cyrus of Persia, whom we last played in NC 297; we last played the Persians under Darius in NC 319. The Persians start with Agriculture and Hunting.

• Traits: Cyrus is Charismatic and Imperialistic. Charismatic gives every city, Monuments and Broadcast Towers +1, and decreases the exp required for units to level by 25%. Imperialistic adds +100% to Great General generation and +50% bonus to Settler production (note that the settler bonus doesn't apply to excess directly converted to ).
• The UB: The Apothecary, a Grocer with +2. Not likely to be useful early game, as health is generally not that much of a concern and Grocers are rather expensive buildings to build. But after industrializing you generally find yourself in dire need of extra health and with production to spare, so a building that can get you up to +6 by itself is pretty useful at that point.
• The UU: The Immortal, a Chariot with +50% vs. Archery units which gets defensive bonuses. A very early and cheap 2 unit that can punch through Sitting Bull archers and easily manoeuvre itself into a defensive position when necessary. Why, yes, this is indeed a good unique unit.

And the start:

Spoiler map details :

Inland Sea, Tropical climate, Medium Sealevel, +1 AI to balance out the field.

Spoiler edits :

A few strategic resource swaps.

The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC Cyrus 329 Noble" (or Monarch, etc., for higher levels). You can play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.

Spoiler what's up with specific difficulties :

In each scenario file you can select your level of difficulty, but that doesn't give the AI the right bonus techs by itself. Use the Noble save for all levels at and below Prince. The Monarch save gives all the AI Archery. Emperor adds Hunting; Immortal adds Agriculture; Deity adds The Wheel.

Spoiler what is demigod :

The difference between Immortal and Deity difficulty is akin to the difference between Noble and Immortal. Players eventually reached a point where Immortal was too easy, but Deity was still out of reach, and so neither difficulty provided a fun experience. "Demigod" is an otherwise standard Deity game where the AIs are only given their Immortal level starting units, in an attempt to bridge the gap.

Spoiler for players on Monarch or above :

You should add archery as a tech for the barbarians (if you don't, the AI will capture their cities very early). This cannot be done in the WB save file and must be done in Worldbuilder as follows:

Spoiler how to add techs to the barbarians :

1. Zoom in all the way so you can't see the rest of the map.
2. Use the CTRL-W key (or the menu) to enter the worldbuilder. Avoid looking at the mini-map in the lower right corner.
3. By default you're in "player" mode (look in the box in the upper right; the icon that looks like a person should be selected). You'll get a drop down menu labeled with your leader's name. Barbarians are at the bottom, so cover the rest of the list with your hand if you don't want to see who else is on the map. Select "Barbarians".
4. Select the "Technologies" tab in the box on the left.
5. Find Archery (the arrow head icon; 8th row, 3rd column from the right) and click it.
6. Exit the worldbuilder.
7. Zoom out again after the map fades, and start playing.

If you're playing at higher level than Monarch, consider also giving them Hunting at Emperor, Agriculture at Immortal, and The Wheel at Deity.

Spoiler huts and events :

Note: The standard saves have no huts and have events turned off. If you want tribal villages and random events, choose the saves with "Huts" in their names. If you want huts but no events, select the Huts saves and use Custom Scenario to turn on the option that suppresses events.

 

[AcaMetis]

That seems about as straightforward a settling decision as you can get. The scout can move either SE to check if the two open grassland tiles you move away from are worth settling a Floodplain (which, unless they're both riverside gems, is going to be a resounding "nope"), or move SW to check what you're moving into. Or the scout can move elsewhere because 1W PH settle is going to win out regardless if you're feeling like taking the world's most given gamble. Than again, CiV IV RNG is known to buck the trend in that regard .

What do the experts think ?

 

[coanda]

Even if there is something ridiculous and amazing hidden in the grass tiles east of the start, I'd still just take the faster start from the 2H plainshill. With that, good starting location, decent starting techs, and an Imperialistic leader, you ought to be able to get a fairly quick second city, and it could then take advantage of those mystery tiles while sharing pigs and helping grow some FP cottages.

Move the settler onto the PH, use that vision to decide which direction to send the scout in checking out second-city locations.

 

[antimony]

Immortal T76

Spoiler :

Teched AH-Mining-Wheel-BW first, and when I saw how close the Spanish were I decided to make a Settler at size 3 working the 2 pigs and gold (since with the Imp bonus hammers dry corn is not as good). Took all 3 Spanish cities with Immortals while teching Pottery-Writing-Math. Traded Math for Alpha (partly researched) with Pericles. I have granaries and libraries in main 4 cities now.

Thoughts about what comes next:
- As you can see Aztec power level is quite low, I suspect he only has archers and had I kept going all in on immortals it might have been possible to keep warring that way. I was a bit dissuaded by the distance + jungle terrain and my lack of experience with Immortal (difficulty, also the namesake unit I suppose), and stopped producing units to focus on improving the current territory. Immortals are still good for scouting and fog-busting (I neglected that so far and the barbs are getting a bit annoying, of course especially the spearmen given I didn't grab copper).
- Tech-wise I'm thinking going Fishing-Sailing-Calendar before Currency, because of the trade route potential around the sea and the number of unique calendar resources around to raise my happy cap and run more scientists in those libraries. Long-term plan would be a standard Cuir tech path, given the potential to upgrade nicely promoted immortals.

- Good city sites I'm seeing on the map right now include that lake corn - copper site in the south, fish NW of capital and dry rice NE near Aztec border. Fish site is a bit awkward because it's in 2nd ring and nothing good (3 jungles) in first ring.

 

[chinemol]

got my civ computer back after half a year. got some serious catching up to do. weekend is gonna be intense. settle on gold!

 

[CaptainPlatypus]

Emperor, domination, T210.

Honestly, a very straightforward game. Settled 1W and then 3N3E, got horses, killed izzy with immortals. kept madrid, razed her second city (garbage spot). Settled 3E1S mainly as a helper city to grow cottages for capital. Took the gems and rice spot to the NE early because it was the only city I really wanted that any of the AI stood any chance of contesting. Noticed that the wonder pace was VERY slow (1920 wall, 1800 henge) and managed to sneak in oracle CoL. super straightforward from there, expanded to fill all the space izzy had left behind, up to like 11 cities, rushed civil service, detoured for currency, then straight up to cuirs. DoW from pericles right after I get defensive longbows up and maybe 10 turns before cuirs were ready- his attack was so sad that the few defensive knights I built while I waited for liberalism managed to counterattack and take a city. From there it was just very straightforward, monty and WK were at war so after pericles capped i pivoted away from degaulle and took out monty, WK, and willem. degaulle DoWed me right before willem was ready to cap, and he capped to degaulle instead, but by that point i was using cavalry against mostly longbows and war elephants with a few grenadiers here and there. degaulle capped, I could have just waited for border pops but decided to grab a few cities from Mao at the end just for fun.

Definitely not a super optimized game, you could easily finish 20 turns earlier with better execution, but very happy with it for my skill level. Only my second emperor win (and also the second this week!) and it felt almost easy. Immortals are good units, cuirs are even better, and none of the AI really managed to take off. Even if Monty had DoWed me like I thought he was going to instead of going after WK, I had the longbows in the border cities to almost certainly hold - would have been a bit slower to fight him and pericles at once, but the win felt secure by the time I revolted to HR/bureaucracy.

Lessons learned:

1. Emperor isn't as scary as it felt a week ago
2. Immortals are good units
3. Late oracle is fudging absurd if you can somehow get it
4. Inland sea is a nutty map, and really fun for domination. So much good land.

 

[Implo]

Cyrus is one of my favorite leaders! But his teching really falls of in late game if you cant establish a good base empire

I like the river PH start, just goes so fine with AH/mining start. Great Commers and production so you have a lot of options open. Will of course use scout to maximize the greed but I dont really know what would be superior.
Size 3 city can produce settlers with 14 H 1 F = 6 turns settlers. Working Gold, ph mine, and pigs. Then ofc comes the chops to speed things even further.

The early excuse to go for AH is also great.. if you find horses and that opens up a different kind of shenanigans with a guy like cyrus and some decent production.

 

[Implo]

Diety - Events ON - T0 - T 78
Settled on river PH, and a amazing capital revealed itsealf. Found horses close by. Opted for archery because of timing of 2nd city. Great land to settle, but a really soft Isabell and she was in wonder/religion mode. Ended up planning for a construction attack vs Isabell, use chariots/archers and catapult to tear her down. She build, SH, oracle (HR) and pyramids. She got budism and no one have adopted her religion. Even got a early shrine! So she is a dream first target. Probably ready for a attack around t90. Setteled a late 5 city that probalby just are going to whip a granary and immortals untill the waring is done.

Hopefully monty will be angry at Wang.Went for the risky math self tech and it lucked out with trade from Alpha with william.

My empire t78

Trade situation. Probably trade math for IW if possible and maybe masonry and some minor techs. Will try to keep trades to a minimum. Will go construction and maybe HBR. Will probably self tech currency fast. and pick up gold from whatever techs we have available.

 

[soundjata]

Deity T89

Spoiler :

Rich Corner to expand into.
Couldn't justify rushing for war, but waiting for CUIR would be suicidal (Annoyed Monty at doorstep)
Middle ground recipe = Engi Rush.

Oh I really want to use that great scientist for an Academy.
A golden age would not be silly either.
But let's keep him for the Engi bulb (ETA<15t)

Miracle deal upon meeting Charles de Gaulle: Ivory for Horses

Techno Trade summary:
Beeline MC > get Math + Alpha + Masonry + IW + Monarchy in return.


Perseopolis


I think I need to consider switching out of Buddhism (and possibly into Monarchy) NOW rather than later...

 

[Implo]

T78 - T119
Started a opportunistic war @t91 vs Isabell. She had just hooked up metal turn 89. Got two quick cites and pillaged her metal and got cease fire before the counter attack. Then a bit of a slow and maybe not the best planned follow up attack. At one point i had 3 cities under siege at the same time. she had to many cities for a whipeout so i Teched feuda and went for the capitulation. I also wantet the shrine, mids, SH (free happiness and boarder pops).

Just barly got her caped thanks to a lucky city snipe that was only garded by archers and axes.

Monty was plotting but when I caped Isabell he stoped. But with a couple duble promotet longbows that was not really a problem anyway.

the current situation is:

Tech:

Trying for music but will mabe not get it.

Dont really know where to go from here. Should probably do cannons but i feel they are so slow on these kind of maps. Much rather want curri or maybe cavalry. Which I think is reasonable doable form this position.
I also have 1287 gold and about 11 turns of 100 % research! myabe early golden age and with stone.. maybe a early oxford

 

[Implo]

@soundjata very interesting to compare our games.
How did your war go? This qas my result:

 

[soundjata]

I made some progress (T102)

Spoiler :

Waiting for Engineering with Aztecs so close relies on luck, which I got
It takes 2 (painful) turns to revolt out of Buddhism and into Hereditary Rule.
Then Monty starts plotting and immediately creates a stack of axemen and jaguars out of thin air (it seems).
As I start to not trust my odds he comes in with a really smart proposal

We oblige and are safe for 10 turns

We are ready for the Engineering bulb, but the AI isn't ready to trade Aesthetics or Construction.

Currency was released this turn :seemsgood:

Some cities have been growing on ugly tiles (Gordium):


Overall, cities have good surplus and are eager to get whipped.


Big Picture

 

[soundjata]

T121

Spoiler :

Confortable army build-up (10t peace treaty with Aztecs) while Monty is ostensibly moving his stack inside our land.
1 turn after the peace treaty expires, Aztecs attack (sudoku mode)


Imperialistic is great in this scenario: promotions everywhere!
GG#1 was used to bring almost twenty units to level 3 (3 to 4 XP)
GG#2 was used for a supermedic immortal and a superbombard trebuchet

Spoiler :

collateral'd

GG#3 is waiting for a mission

Defences of Tenochtilan...
are zero, the Aztecs are completely toast


Research wise we are pretty much at the same stage as @Implo +Engineering.
No AI is running away too fast ATM.


Isabella requested we adopt Buddha so we are back in it.
We switched into Bureau and Caste, so another turn in Anarchy.

Once Monty capitulates, game will be pretty open

Inland sea

China has a pretty stack near Netherlands border. A DOW that way would be lovely.

Statistics

 

[Implo]

Fun stuff @soundjata

Spoiler T171 - 192 :

Isabell in my game had juicy land! Both mids, shrine and SH. So the erlier I got her the better IMO! Maybe a engineering rush would have been better.

Monty attacked my empire fast after the war with Isabell. No real threat since he was behind tech wise.
And i also got Wang back into war. Got engineering from isabell she was 1 turn away from completing it when I caped her.
Used the engineering and the leftover army to take a couple cites from Monty and getting peace.
After that stablization I Teched as quickly as I could to CAVS and switched into military police, theo and slavery and really pushed out cavs!

The other guys were busy fighting among themselves and the tech pace was slow.


I went on rampage Attacked the other guys from 2 sides.
Monty -> Wang -> William. I had a new stack prepared for Pericles. while i healed and waited for a attack on Mao. Actually contemplated starting two simultaneity wars to speed the win up as much as possible
Ended with a kind of bossfigth with De Gaule who apparently had a massive stack. that wiped out my first CAV group.

No one was close to rifling so a pretty safe game. that ended with a:

1320 conquest victory!

 

[antimony]

Spoiler Immortal T188 - 1280AD :

Domination Victory (not conquest although I capitulated the last AI the turn before)

After my initial report, I realized Barcelona had stone and decided to chop the Pyramids, which surprisingly were still available around turn 85. That solved any happiness issues, but I kept the plan to tech Calendar and then Currency for the economic value. Then I followed a fairly standard Cuir rush plan, maximizing Rep scientists, winning Music and used that GA for a golden age, and got 4 more GP, one priest (due to Stonehenge in Madrid) which I settled in capital, then 3 scientists to bulb Philo and 2x Edu. Lib-MT in 500 AD, and was able to start conquering neighbors with Cuirs in 700 AD. I was hoping Cuirs would be enough given than any non-mounted units take so long to go around the Inland Sea. About 2/3 of the war was for the last two AI (Mao and De Gaulle), De Gaulle had a massive elephants+treb city raider stack plus some more smaller stacks which I focused on slowly taking down outside of cities, with some help from Pericles. Eventually he still had 4-5 defenders by city but still capped, maybe due to war weariness or economic problems since he stopped producing units. Once both the north and south armies focused on Mao it was easy to finish the game.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

I played some turns the other day.
This is turn 49 :

Spoiler :

This map is absolutely bonkers.
There is so much to do in the capital, it goes :
Worker, grow to 2, worker, grow to 4, settler, settler (the objective being to work all 4 tiles in the capital asap)

Worker 1 improves pigs, pigs, gold
Worker 2 improves corn

Tech path : AH, Mining, The Wheel, BW, Pottery
This means BW comes a little late and Worker 2 puts in some extra roads before it is done. A single worker opening could research BW before The Wheel but would be down a ton of worker turns.

A couple of Immortals are trained in time to withstand the barbarians.
Next step is Revolt into Slavery (not done yet) and build the infrastructure. (Up the worker count and get city 4 going, too.)

Wet corn in the south and dry rice in the north offer two potential city spots.
Close neighbour to the West is on its way to build the Buddhist shrine.

Once Writing comes in, we bank gold on HBR. I don't see any tech being particularly appealling, given what we're working with (no marble, no Aesthetics),
HBR is as good as any.