Nobles' Club 363: Pacal II of the Mayan Empire

[AcaMetis]

The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

Our next leader is Pacal II of Maya, whom we last played in NC 299. The Maya(ns?) start with Mysticism and Mining.

• Traits: Pacal II is Expansive and Financial. Expansive adds +2 to all cities, gives a +100% bonus to Granaries and Harbors, and a +25% bonus to Workers (note that the worker bonus doesn't apply to excess directly converted to ). Financial adds +1 to any tile that already produces at least 2.
• The UB: The Ball Court, a Colosseum with +3 instead of +1. Combine Ball Courts with Pacal's Expansive trait to grow your cities to massive sizes, or whip them into the ground to the point where even Montezuma would call you crazy .
• The UU: The Holkan, a Spearman that does not require a resource and is immune to First Strikes. They're reasonably effective defensive units, but Axes will murder them. Their immunity to FS will generally come into play against Archers (particularly PRO archers and Skirmishers) as well as Keshiks, which trade in the HA's own immunity to FS for +1 FS instead.

And the start:

Spoiler map details :

Shuffle, Temperate climate, Medium sealevel. Shuffle basically chooses randomly between a Pangaea, Continents, Fractal or Archipelago style map.

Spoiler edits :

A few strategic resource swaps.

Spoiler isolated? :

Not isolated.

The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC 363 Pacal II Noble" (or Monarch, etc., for higher levels). You can play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.

Spoiler what's up with specific difficulties :

In each scenario file you can select your level of difficulty, but that doesn't give the AI the right bonus techs by itself. Use the Noble save for all levels at and below Prince. The Monarch save gives all the AI Archery. Emperor adds Hunting; Immortal adds Agriculture; Deity adds The Wheel.

Spoiler what is demigod :

The difference between Immortal and Deity difficulty is akin to the difference between Noble and Immortal. Players eventually reached a point where Immortal was too easy, but Deity was still out of reach, and so neither difficulty provided a fun experience. "Demigod" is an otherwise standard Deity game where the AIs are only given their Immortal level starting units, in an attempt to bridge the gap.

Spoiler for players on Monarch or above :

You should add archery as a tech for the barbarians (if you don't, the AI will capture their cities very early). This cannot be done in the WB save file and must be done in Worldbuilder as follows:

Spoiler how to add techs to the barbarians :

1. Zoom in all the way so you can't see the rest of the map.
2. Use the CTRL-W key (or the menu) to enter the worldbuilder. Avoid looking at the mini-map in the lower right corner.
3. By default you're in "player" mode (look in the box in the upper right; the icon that looks like a person should be selected). You'll get a drop down menu labeled with your leader's name. Barbarians are at the bottom, so cover the rest of the list with your hand if you don't want to see who else is on the map. Select "Barbarians".
4. Select the "Technologies" tab in the box on the left.
5. Find Archery (the arrow head icon; 8th row, 3rd column from the right) and click it.
6. Exit the worldbuilder.
7. Zoom out again after the map fades, and start playing.

If you're playing at higher level than Monarch, consider also giving them Hunting at Emperor, Agriculture at Immortal, and The Wheel at Deity.

Spoiler huts and events :

Note: The standard saves have no huts and have events turned off. If you want tribal villages and random events, choose the saves with "Huts" in their names. If you want huts but no events, select the Huts saves and use Custom Scenario to turn on the option that suppresses events.

 

[AcaMetis]

I mean, that's a green enough start to make other leaders green with envy for sure, but no opportunity to leverage EXP early, and not the greatest amount of river tiles. I guess send the Warrior 1E onto the hill to scout out the river area as best he can, and if there's a compelling reason to move (not even sure what that would be, not like a wet corn/dry rice/banana start is particularly food starved) move the settler some degree of east to make better use of the river area. If there is not...I guess just SIP? With a choice between "spend a turn moving the settler, ruining one of few forests in the process" and "move wet corn outside the first ring" I think I'd just take a rain check on both and SIP TBH. Might not be the best capital in the world, but Pacal can surely make something of it.

That's my read on the situation, what do the experts think?

 

[Thrasybulos]

I guess send the Warrior 1E onto the hill to scout out the river area as best he can, and if there's a compelling reason to move (not even sure what that would be, not like a wet corn/dry rice/banana start is particularly food starved) move the settler some degree of east to make better use of the river area.

Seems very reasonable.
But who cares about "reasonable"?

I say, send the warrior 1N instead: we need to find a pretext to settle on the Corn instead!

 

[AcaMetis]

I mean, extra yield city tile, totally worth it right .

 

[Thrasybulos]

Oh yes, totally.
Plus you gain a forest.
And 3 hills with all green tiles and a lake mean -3 food total, while your city tile would provide +3 food.
=> Perfectly balanced size-20 city.

And let's face it: agriculture food sources are the worst. Their yield changes when you reach Biology, forcing you to rebalance every city which has them. Nightmare stuff.

 

[Build2Much]

Thanks for posting, was hoping for a new game today.

I have no problem with SIP, but in this particular photo I want an excuse to move 2E. Looks like it would be -1 forest (I think there is 1 forest and 1 jungle we can see the edge of that we would pick up?), -1 Banana, +2 green hills, + at least one river cottage (I think it’s at least +3 river cottage). That might be enough for me depending on what we see when the warrior moves (1E).

I could also see settling on the river hill my warrior will move to, but I think I’d prefer the production given the tiles I can see.

 

[Tecumseh1]

I'm thinking 1E or 2E is best long term. More river cottages that way. Definitely moving warrior 1E. But with financial SIP is not that bad either as those grasslands are worth a lot more as financial.


Ahh the east looks lovely. I'm tempted to go 2E which seems best long term for capital but it ruins plains hill pig city and might ruin fish too. Also it's coast on the east so settling more to the west to grab land seems worthwhile.

 

[Tecumseh1]

T22

After moving warrior 1E, and much deliberation I decided to SIP. It allows second city on plains tile for pig and lots of commerce and food between the first 2 cities. Also capital on hill makes it indestructible to barbs. Went Agri -> AH. Debated BW but 2 pop whipping 1st settler is too slow. Also pottery can wait a bit and no use for the wheel yet. And look horse in the first ring of the capital. The land looks pretty good though I don't see a big reason to rush Toku or Justinian but need to explore a bit more first.

 

[CGQ]

I have no problem with SIP, but in this particular photo I want an excuse to move 2E. Looks like it would be -1 forest (I think there is 1 forest and 1 jungle we can see the edge of that we would pick up?), -1 Banana, +2 green hills, + at least one river cottage (I think it’s at least +3 river cottage). That might be enough for me depending on what we see when the warrior moves (1E).

I could also see settling on the river hill my warrior will move to, but I think I’d prefer the production given the tiles I can see.

Spoiler Warrior revealed something interesting :

Playing immortal. I dig this start! Moved warrior 1E and revealed piggies! That's an automatic 2E settle for me! AGRI>AH seems like the move for me.

I plan to grow to size 3 and slow build settlers. Maybe mine one of the PH and grow to size 4. 2nd city can be built 1N of pigs to share pigs and PH will be nice production tile. Land looks good so far! Hopefully I didn't ruin seafood lol.

 

[Tecumseh1]

Need to fix your spoiler

 

[AcaMetis]

Spoiler :

Hopefully I didn't ruin seafood lol.

That capital location can't ruin seafood - the only coastal city site blocked is 1E of pigs, but that doesn't grab any tiles that 1N or 2E of pigs can't grab as well. You will need to scout the coast to confirm where you can settle a pig city without potentially ruining seafood, though, since 2E of pigs would block the 1N city site, and that could ruin seafood if it's 3N1E of the pigs tile.

(I'm assuming that's the bigger risk since, assuming zero seafood in play, 2E of pigs on the PH would be a better settle location than 1N of pigs. 1N would have the benefit of instant connection and better tile sharing with the capital, though, so maybe a better second city spot anyway?)

 

[Thrasybulos]

Spoiler :

That capital location can't ruin seafood

But settling on the Corn would. So unfair!

 

[soundjata]

But settling on the Corn would. So unfair!

And just when the plan was looking flawless!

 

[CGQ]

Spoiler :

That capital location can't ruin seafood - the only coastal city site blocked is 1E of pigs, but that doesn't grab any tiles that 1N or 2E of pigs can't grab as well. You will need to scout the coast to confirm where you can settle a pig city without potentially ruining seafood, though, since 2E of pigs would block the 1N city site, and that could ruin seafood if it's 3N1E of the pigs tile.

(I'm assuming that's the bigger risk since, assuming zero seafood in play, 2E of pigs on the PH would be a better settle location than 1N of pigs. 1N would have the benefit of instant connection and better tile sharing with the capital, though, so maybe a better second city spot anyway?)

Spoiler Thank God I didn't settle on corn! :

Yeah 1N of pigs is the spot for sure. Either 1NW of pig or 1N of pig for that fish. The instant connection (no wheel yet) + sharing cottages/pigs + PH mine this could make workers at size 2/3 until we work cottages!

Some good city sites around the map too.

 

[CGQ]

Spoiler Turn 51 I'm a little stuck :

Turn 36: Settler about to arrive to settle 1N pig city. This capital is perfect for settler building!

Also met Justy, Elizabeth, and Toku.
Settled third city by horses. Went AGRI>AH>TW>Pottery>Writing. I might HA rush Toku, given I have the production and commerce to do a HA rush. Should I do HBR first or BW then HBR?

/SPOILER]

 

[soundjata]

@CGQ

Spoiler :

You don't have many forests or much room (happies) for whip anger stacking.
You may have to rely on mines for HA production.

I can only see one worker. Another 2 are required urgently imo.
That said, you could use a few chops and whips in the short term so probably BW > HBR still.

Generally hammers are paramount in the early game (i mean they beat commerce)

 

[Alexander IV]

Some pics from 75AD, deity nh ne

Spoiler Pics :

Pa[rthian] near Mutal and Circassian down south were barb cities I had nothing to deal with, the land was heavily invaded by Byzantine and Japanese units fogbusting everything, so AH was later than pottery (and writing?), and I still haven't imroved the pig farm (forgetting about that), but not that I really needed more food there with happy cap before calendar. Tokyo was there before Lakamha.

Mutal is building a happy warrior, because the only mine in the kingdom is located here, nevermind it's abandoned

Noone's gonna help her, Toku is +4 for shared religion [how?] and +1 for shared years of peace but -6 for her gaijin face, and not even opened borders to her [or anyone, what a surprise]. And that's quite bad btw - but what can you do?

I have nice trades

And nice tech trades

And a holy site too
Cities are not that big, but most of them had been whipped because pacifism is coming. Monasteries mainly - for all the cottages and plantations and for the day I become a buddhist.

P.S. Don't know where Bismark is but he's plotting and this could be me. Our peace treaty is over, and I just hope he's somewhere in the east.

Not sure about philosophy before CS, but I think I'd better get a GP in paci for a GA while my cities grow selfresearching Bureaucracy. First GS went Academy so no easy philo bulb here

Ave Nobles Club!

 

[AcaMetis]

Spoiler :

P.S. Don't know where Bismark is but he's plotting and this could be me. Our peace treaty is over, and I just hope he's somewhere in the east.

Given you haven't met all of the AIs yet it's also possible that he's already in a war, although if so I think hovering over his portrait in the foreign advisor screen will tell you if he is. Similarly the game will tell about Worst Enemies, even if you haven't met said worst enemy yet.

 

[Alexander IV]

Spoiler :

Only says he's my only friend. He likes everybody I know except Toku. Btw having a look at my own trade screen gifted Toku two resources for relations, should have done it a few turns earlier. I think if anybody else is on the continent, they are behind Japan's closed borders, like Bismarck here[?]. I can't see what's to the west of England, but if anybody there, they would show up long ago.