Nobles Club CLIV - Wang Kon of Korea

[dalamb]

Thanks for all the advice, folks. It's very timely since I'm taking the rest of today off to recover from a long driving trip yesterday.

Spoiler :

The main advice I gather from nearly everyone is: I should have had several more cities by now, and I have to watch out for Napoleon. I'll have to hope he holds off on attacking me while I build up my military -- originally I thought I'd be attacking someone, but now I guess the priority is fending off attacks while I expand some more.

I take the comment about Calendar to heart, and will go for it as soon as I finish HBR.

Anybody have an opinion on whether it's better to keep the 2 barb cities in place, or raze them to locate my cities in my originally-planned positions? I'm particularly thinking of the western one, where my preferred location gets Marble with one henge-fueled expansion. On the other hand, its current location does get Crabs, which help my health issues around the floodplain cities.

 

[Amao]

Thanks for all the advice, folks. It's very timely since I'm taking the rest of today off to recover from a long driving trip yesterday.

Spoiler :

The main advice I gather from nearly everyone is: I should have had several more cities by now, and I have to watch out for Napoleon. I'll have to hope he holds off on attacking me while I build up my military -- originally I thought I'd be attacking someone, but now I guess the priority is fending off attacks while I expand some more.

I take the comment about Calendar to heart, and will go for it as soon as I finish HBR.

Anybody have an opinion on whether it's better to keep the 2 barb cities in place, or raze them to locate my cities in my originally-planned positions? I'm particularly thinking of the western one, where my preferred location gets Marble with one henge-fueled expansion. On the other hand, its current location does get Crabs, which help my health issues around the floodplain cities.

@dalamb

Spoiler :

There are 2 marbles for you to choose. I chose the western one. however, i set up a city on exactly the barb city site. how did i deal with the marble? i set up 3 cities on this narrow yet riverly stripe from southern coast to northern coast. The middle one took the marble.

However, i was playing for fun on Noble with less concerns on maintenance cost. Still, you could keep the barb city and just get another settler to place on either marble site. Do note that since i got western marble, i didn't settle any city to get the other marble in the city fat cross.

To me, the reason for you the keep both barb cities are simple. They are both high food sites. With enough workers, you got them running really fast. I think the southern city became one of my GP farms and the other was a major mid-late game military production site with workshop spam.

 

[Deonnim]

@dalamb

Spoiler :

If you grab the barb city, it will be a decent enough city I guess. It also allows you to snag a city w/o having to build a Settler, which will allow you to build a city in another location. Taking over the barb city instead of razing would also allow you to get it up and running quicker, and fairly quick access to clams for the health. You could also settle on the green dot or settling 1 W would give a bit more of a block of land from Lincoln, seems like more production, you'd have access to Marble on the 2nd border pop, and also opens up a wet grasslands for farm or cottage.
The barb city in the north I can't really tell much about the surrounding area, but if I extrapolate from others SS, I can tell it probably isn't the greatest placement of the city, but it's not absolutely horrible either. That area probably needs to be looked at closer if you are worried about optimal city placement. If what you're worried about now is getting more cities quickly, I would snag both of those barb cities, leave them where they are, and then start pumping out more settlers.
The spot for the possible Moai statues, the only food available to it (until CS and chain irrigation) would be the fish in its 2nd ring. You'll need a monument or library first there, and it doesn't look highly productive and only 3 forests to chop in the vicinity. It's doable, but I don't see it as a huge priority, especially since you seem to be behind the eight ball with settling. If you're getting Calendar soon, I would settle the city in the desert for the incense, it's a decent enough site for commerce. If all of that works out for you, you'll end up having 5 extra cities with only having to build 2 extra settlers, assuming there is a settler waiting to settle at the wine location.

Side note: I need to play this map again, when I played it last I had no actual plan as to what I wanted/needed to do, so I tech'd all over the tree and definitely didn't REX enough. I think I was pretty much in the same boat as you, only 1 or 2 more cities, and probably further along in time, no military to speak of, etc. I was going for religions and culture, and I'm fairly certain I had most if not all of the religions at one point.

 

[FlyingSwan]

@Dalamb.

Spoiler :

I would try and get a city to the west of Wonsan to claim the marble and fence Napolean in.Barb citys are fine to keep and will save you a lot of hammers.Maintainance on monarch level still isn't too bad so you should be fine.

Not so sure about self teching calander though,I prefer to trade for it or steal it-concentrate your espionage on Napolean and park some spys in his nearest city.

 

[dalamb]

Monarch, Epic, H+E, BC 395 - AD 1250

BC 4000-2450
BC 2450 2nd dotmap
BC 2450-395

A fairly long session today. Some things went OK, but others didn't go as planned.

Spoiler :

I planted Nam'po to claim the bananas and marble to the NW, and Hyangsan to claim the wine, but by the time I started building up my army to take on the barb cities (that is, by the time I got my first war elephant) the situation had changed...

• AD 70 (long before I could take on any of these cities). The barbs have been busy; they had horse archers by this point.
  
• AD 310: I manage to take Phoenician but (a) I spotted a French SoD not too far to the northeast, so he was probably aiming to tkae it and (b) Lincoln has taken back at least one of his cities, and way off to the northeast has captured the barb city near the pigs (Polynesian)
  
• AD 1050: I paid for failing to take Polynesian. Nam'po had lost all its good resources, the food-critical bananas to the now-American former barb city (there was nothing I could do about France at this point, but it made me more determined to take Nappy out ASAP).
  

I've been ahead in tech for most of the game, but did manage to make a few trades:

• 40 AD: Alphabet
  
• AD 295: Monotheism
  
• AD 1060: Compass
  
  I rapidly researched Optics (Hammy wanted to keep his monopoly), upgraded a trireme to caravel, and headed East, finding Alex and Mao within a couple of turns and trading for their maps to get:
  
  Neither of them had a religion (!) so I quickly built another caravel, loaded up a missionary, and sent it to Mao. I'll need a 2nd for Alex since the two are at war and thus have closed borders with each other.

Some more chronology.

• BC 975: first Great Scientist builds an academy in Seoul.
• AD 145: second Great Scientist bulbs Philosophy to discourage the AI from getting one of the Liberalism prerequisites.
• AD 430: working the hill west of Seoul results in discovering Iron:
  
  As you can imagine this made a huge difference to my planning and makes my game not comparable to most others -- but it has nothing to do with having events turned on.
• AD 550: I used the Music GA to start a golden age and switch civics (my first since switching to slavery so very long ago).
  
• AD 880: I lose the Mausoleaum to Lincoln. I had wanted it for the Taj golden age, but in retrospect it was probably a waste of hammers that could better have been spent on military buildup. It would be nice to conquer Lincoln before I start any more golden ages, but I think Napoleon is the more important target because he's a bit more of a threat.
• AD 990: I get within 1 turn of Liberalism but hold off because nobody else has its prereqs yet. At least, nobody on my continent. At this point I haven't met the rest of the AI yet.
• AD 1030: Nappy isn't plotting war (no fist in the status summary in the lower right corner), but he has a small SoD in Orleans that is mildly worrisome.
  
• AD 1040: Even if he isn't about to attack me, Nappy is starting to take some unfriendly actions:
  
  I start building spies for all my border cities.
• AD 1080: third Great Scientist partly bulbs Printing Press, which helps me slightly on the commerce front (though not a lot).

Current status in 1250 AD:

• Demographics. Now first in production and land area -- which will likely dig me out of whatver hole I'm in otherwise -- but 4th in soldiers.
  
• Charts. Just met the last of the overseas AI so can't see their graphs yet, but at least among the AI I can see I've recovered in power (though Julius has more).
  
• The diplomatic situation. Everybody on my continent likes each other, and I'm positive with all the AI from other continents except Hammy.
  
  Spoiler diplomacy :

  
• Technology. I'm ahead. Nobody has all the precursors for Liberalism yet so I've delayed it to go for Steel when I finish Chemistry in 13 turns.
  
• My Stack of Doom. It's enough to take out France but doesn't have enough defenders to protect me if Nappy bribes Caesar into the war. JC is pleased, so perhaps that means I'm safe.
  

Plans at this point (advice welcome):

Spoiler :

I'm going for conquest since I'm weak on warmongering and need to practice.

1. Conquer Napoleon.
2. (presuming I've lib'd steel at that point): upgrade the best trebs and/or hwachaa to cannons and go after Lincoln. He's a higher priority than Julius because of his cultural pressure against Nam'po. After I take his nearest cities I'm not sure I want to completely take him over, because it might be nice to keep a vassal for trade.
3. Get my economy to recover before going after JC. I'm wondering whether it makes sense to switch to Free Speech once I have more towns to benefit from the +2?
4. Consolidate and work up to a modern military before taking on the other two continents. No horses, so no cavalry, unfortunately, so maybe I'll wait for tanks. Coastal production looks weak, so I'll probably have to get my seacoast cities stockpiling galleons as soon as I have Astronomy.

 

[wongfu]

@FlyingSwan

Spoiler :

Thanks for the comment. I like your idea of waiting liberalism until the last second.

@dalamb

Spoiler :

I am not a good player so I am not giving you advice. Here, I am pointing out differences in our thoughts. Maybe someone else can talk about which idea is better.
(1) I usually save my music GA and use it when I most need it. Usually, I use it for post-war development phase in which I need to develop my newly conquered cities. Alternatively, I use it when I am in desperate need of more infrastructures (e.g., discovered Corporation and need several banks and just discovered Assembly Line and need to build factories everywhere).
(2) I don't think you need to wait until Tanks. If you managed to build a respectable team of siege weapons, weak attackers can kill whatever city defenders you are facing. Plus, riflemen and grenadiers aren't that weak.

Emperor, NHNE, 1710

Spoiler :

Capitulate Lincoln at 1600. Switch to universal suffrage for the extra production. Stay in organized religion for faster construction, bureaucracy for capital wonders. I want to stick with slavery until the last moment. I am researching biology hoping to get more food to crunch out a great engineer for Mining Inc. If there is enough time, I want to get Steel, trade iron for 1 turn, upgrade my siege and smash my marble (to break the trade). I have an idle Great Merchant and I am waiting to setup Sushi (is it dumb?). Seoul has Oxford University and I am planning to build Wall Street there too. I have no motivation to get Military Tradition because I don't see myself getting any horses in the foreseeable future.

Tech, diplo and civics:

Spoiler :

Coming next: Build up an army of infantry and crush Julius Caesar. After that, maybe I can crush the Greek-Chinese continent for domination victory. Or if I am lazy... space victory?

 

[dalamb]

Monarch, Epic, H+E, AD 1250-1290. I kept forgetting to mention I went with No Tech Brokering, to prevent the AI from trading away techs I trade or sell them (or sometimes gift, for the improved diplo).

BC 4000-2450
BC 2450 2nd dotmap
BC 2450-395
BC 395 - AD 1250

A short session; the rest of today and probably tomorrow will be taken up with installing my new computer (and downloading a ton of software). I should know by tomorrow whether I can re-download Civ IV from GameStop without paying again.

Spoiler :

Conquest of France:

The first turn of the war was scary, because Nappy's SoD was in Orleans, including a lot of catapults. Fortunately I only lost a few troops had enough undamaged Hwachaa to reduce him to the point where I could take him out with undamaged longbowmen (!) This time my habit of "overbuilding" before attacking was the only reason I won the city.

Part way through the war I finished Chemistry, Lib'd Steel, and converted some trebs and Hwachaa to cannons. So the war suddenly became quite a bit easier.

Took Nappy's northern cities, razing Marseilles which was in a lousy spot. I have the option of either continuing the war to take him out or having him capitulate. I think I'll take his capitulation; his last two cities are crappy and one is on an island. I don't really want to bother with a galley invasion of a 2-tile island city -- but maybe it's a better thing to just get rid of him entirely. Or wait for Astronomy, which shouldn't take long now. Any opinions?

• About halfway through the war this happened:
  
  Yays! I won control, and it was in Rheims which I conquered shortly thereafter.
• The northern territory, with my new cities and most of the Roman cities.
  
  Spoiler north :

  
• The western territory, with Lincoln and one Roman city.
  
  Spoiler west :

  

 

[Tobiyogi]

I would settle one NW, to save the green hill and the FP. Oasis in the 1. ring, all FP are in the capital, also the forest sugar (nice tile). The stone is not needed in the capitol imo.

 

[krikav]

1E 2N looks tempting imho.

 

[pigswill]

Monarch epic 1000bc

Spoiler :

Second game after a three year gap so quite rusty. Standard Wang Kong no metals map. Fair enough. SIP. Expanded to four cities, met three neighbours, got a couple of settlers out looking for homes in the north. Got maths and alphabet, AIs pretty slow teching. Maybe try for Pyramids and standard elepult war v Nap.

 

[krikav]

Welcome back @pigswill !

 

[pigswill]

Monarch epic 145ad.
Why elepult when you can hwachaphant?

Spoiler :

Went for construction, Hbr then CS (70ad). Tech rate pretty slow as I was whipping cities instead of growing them. However Napoleon is down to 2 cities (I island, 1 1pop jungle) and he gave me calendar for peace. Now up to 11 cities and economy is poor, still got a hwachaphant stack but might peace out and rebuild economy. Still no religion on our continent (I missed Confu by 2 turns), outside chance of bulbing philo for Tao so I'll see what happens

 

[pigswill]

Monarch epic 1200ad

Spoiler :

Managed to bulb philo and found Tao 235ad which spread rapidly throughout the continent. Decided to go for early optics (535) and explore the world while getting eng (700ad) and building up an army. Exploration went quite well, got circumnav and managed to get Paper from Ham which gave me a world map fairly early.

Military not quite so straightforward, Jules and Nap dowed 535, Jules quit 685 after I took a city, I took the opportunity to finish off Napoleon to get rid of his culture. Jules dowed again 835 but eventually capped 1010 after I captured (treb vs LB) a couple more cities.

After a quick diversion through aesth>lit>music for HE and GAGA I went for astro (1010) which boosted trade routes and resource trades. Then went for PP and education (1200), just started Seowons for Oxford. Lincoln had neglected his military which made him an easy target, he capped 1190 after losing four cities to trebs/WE/maces. Just returned a couple of them and he's now Friendly.

So I've got control of the continent with ?16 cities and a couple of vassals which is a decent start. The economy is in decent shape (breaking even at 50%), built FP in Paris which helped. Cottaged flood plains are also pretty helpful. Decent tech lead on the AIs. Overall a comfortable position.

I'm settling a couple of distant island cities for domestic overseas trade routes. Thinking of going for scimeth>lib>communism. Need economix at some point. Need to build a navy. Then a matter of getting milsci/steel for gren/cannon invasions.

 

[pigswill]

Monarch epic. 1540ad conquest (223k)

Spoiler :

Pretty straightforward. Libbed communism, got GE who rushed Kremlin, economix, GA with GSpy and GM, got steel/milsci, spent cash upgrading trebs to cannon and, maces/ xbows to grens then rolled over the AI.

Easy win due to generous mapmaker.