Nomadic cultures on Vanilla

Do you think there will be playable nomad cultures on release?

  • yes

    Votes: 2 13.3%
  • no

    Votes: 12 80.0%
  • unless you are the Mongols

    Votes: 1 6.7%

  • Total voters
    15
@ehecatzin
@Boris Gudenuf
Yeah, you both have managed to actually convince me that - for example - at least for a few cultures it'd be really nice if there was an option to live as a nomad until like classical or medieval era and you'd need to settle down only to advance to the renaissance. As I won't believe you can develop scientific method, gunpowder manufacturing, printing press, caravels and industry as a nomad ;)
But for sake of Goths, Franks, Huns, Scythians, Manchu, Mongols, Turks, Magyars, Bulgarians etc it'd indeed be really cool if you could live just from the steppe for first few eras.

I'd hope it would be closely tied to terrain system, so such civs would be possible only on equivalents of steppes and savannah, with plenty of grass for horse grazing and natural development of the best cavalry in the world (not to mention - conditions naturally preventing rise of cities and promoting nomadism).
 
@ehecatzin
@Boris Gudenuf
Yeah, you both have managed to actually convince me that - for example - at least for a few cultures it'd be really nice if there was an option to live as a nomad until like classical or medieval era and you'd need to settle down only to advance to the renaissance. As I won't believe you can develop scientific method, gunpowder manufacturing, printing press, caravels and industry as a nomad ;)
But for sake of Goths, Franks, Huns, Scythians, Manchu, Mongols, Turks, Magyars, Bulgarians etc it'd indeed be really cool if you could live just from the steppe for first few eras.

I'd hope it would be closely tied to terrain system, so such civs would be possible only on equivalents of steppes and savannah, with plenty of grass for horse grazing and natural development of the best cavalry in the world (not to mention - conditions naturally preventing rise of cities and promoting nomadism).

Just want to point out that your skepticism about the idea forced me to refine my thinking about it - as usual, it is the synthesis that produces progress!

A case could be made that Humankind's 'Nomadic Start' in the 'pre-Era' they are calling the Neolithic could be extended later in the game in very specific instances with a wider Terrain Range.

For example, technically, all the 'Indo-European' cultural Factions were still nomadic or at least 'semi-nomadic' until long after 4000 BCE or the nominal start of the conventional 'Ancient Era'. Even later, large and important Cultural Factions like the various German tribes (Franks, Burgundians, Teutons) in the Classical Era showed 'nomadic' tendencies from a northern Forest environment, and, as mentioned earlier, the Gallic Celts in the early Classical spawned massive invasions/migrations into Roman/Greek areas, also from terrain/climate combinations not usually associated with the 'classic' Pastoral groups.

It also might be useful to look at the fact that after the Gallic migrations were defeated or turned back, they started forming cities: urban concentrations like Bibracte only seem to have started rising in the century or two before Caesar's conquests, so we have what might be a useful historical example of the 'conversion' of a semi-nomadic group into a 'Civilized' faction. Also useful for bringing 'nomads' into the game is that the Celts had already pioneered several important technologies without having Cities: the long iron sword, link mail armor, chariot and wheel technology superior to the Roman when they met (most of the Latin words that refer to chariots, wheels, carts, harness, etc. have been traced to Celtic/Gallic roots, so the technology and words were borrowed), soap, and were not only building cities but a pretty good road system, complete with exact surveys of distances between towns which were so good the Romans kept them after they 'Romanized' the province of Gaul.

Which might give us some Technological Clues: the pastoral 'nomad Civs/Factions' were very good at Technologies involving warfare (the composite bow, saddles, and original wheel/cart technology is also traced back to the Proto-Indo-European nomadic groups) and Trade - roads and distances.

As you pointed out, though, any Pastoral Faction has to be prepared to Settle Down sooner or later. Even the Mongols had to give it up when their opposition had efficient gunpowder weapons, because in addition to an iron smelter, you cannot put a gunpowder mill or gun foundry on a cart either!

In the Humankind game we are (sort of) discussing, I'd argue that a variant Nomad Faction should be an option for the Ancient, Classical, and Medieval Eras. If you want to hang onto, say, the medieval Mongols through the Renaissance you could try it, but, like the Mongol Successor Great Horde in southern Russia, the 16th century is probably going to see you getting your horse-sitting Butts Kicked by Muscovite Streltsi musketmen that you really cannot fight effectively.
 
In the Humankind game we are (sort of) discussing, I'd argue that a variant Nomad Faction should be an option for the Ancient, Classical, and Medieval Eras. If you want to hang onto, say, the medieval Mongols through the Renaissance you could try it, but, like the Mongol Successor Great Horde in southern Russia, the 16th century is probably going to see you getting your horse-sitting Butts Kicked by Muscovite Streltsi musketmen that you really cannot fight effectively.

QFT. Also, it's worth to repeat that nomadic doesn't have to mean "constantly moving". I can't seem to see that work gameplay wise on a map that hasn't several such groups that can be pushed back and forth (as the Goths were into the Roman Empire). Rather, nomadic may mean "wider, but not deep" control over the regions as they are in the game. Whereas if you "settle down" earlier, you can have deeper control over fewer tiles (in your region). It may be a workaround to realism, but it may just work. And of course you can then switch from one region to the next, that's the whole (gameplay) point of nomadic, but it would be weird to jump one region per turn. I can't see constant movement be that fun :)

As for historical examples, I like your inclusion of the "Vikings", I want to add the Sioux, Comanche and Cherokee. Speaking of that, we might have to distinguish between nomadic and migrating people. The Cherokee did migrate North to South before the Europeans entered the continent, and then there's the trail of tears of course. Just like some Celtic tribe burned down their villages and went off to better lands, and like the Germanic Tribes in the so called migration period. The difference between controlling a region "wide, but not deep" and packing your "iron smelter" and moving somewhere else. Just saying, people might confuse the two different types of nomadic :)

A few more cultures that could fall under those definitions of nomadic: Zulu, Mapuche, and I'm sure there are some examples from Southeast Asia. Just to drive home the point that it doesn't have to mean "steppe". Or am I wrong?
 
QFT. Also, it's worth to repeat that nomadic doesn't have to mean "constantly moving". I can't seem to see that work gameplay wise on a map that hasn't several such groups that can be pushed back and forth (as the Goths were into the Roman Empire). Rather, nomadic may mean "wider, but not deep" control over the regions as they are in the game. Whereas if you "settle down" earlier, you can have deeper control over fewer tiles (in your region). It may be a workaround to realism, but it may just work. And of course you can then switch from one region to the next, that's the whole (gameplay) point of nomadic, but it would be weird to jump one region per turn. I can't see constant movement be that fun :)

As for historical examples, I like your inclusion of the "Vikings", I want to add the Sioux, Comanche and Cherokee. Speaking of that, we might have to distinguish between nomadic and migrating people. The Cherokee did migrate North to South before the Europeans entered the continent, and then there's the trail of tears of course. Just like some Celtic tribe burned down their villages and went off to better lands, and like the Germanic Tribes in the so called migration period. The difference between controlling a region "wide, but not deep" and packing your "iron smelter" and moving somewhere else. Just saying, people might confuse the two different types of nomadic :)

A few more cultures that could fall under those definitions of nomadic: Zulu, Mapuche, and I'm sure there are some examples from Southeast Asia. Just to drive home the point that it doesn't have to mean "steppe". Or am I wrong?

Not wrong at all. In fact, James Scott in Against the Grain makes the point that recent archeology has discovered a great deal of evidence that many early attempts at settling down and starting city life failed and the people, rather than being overrun by 'barbarians' as originally thought, simply went back to nomadic hunter-gathering/hunting when early agriculture proved to be too chancy to feed them. There was, throughout the Ancient Era, a lot more 'mobility' in the way peoples moved back and forth between incipient agriculture, hunting, herding, and gathering. And even later, there were cultures in which a large portion of the population were not, strictly speaking, settled in one place, but moved back and forth between two or more settled places - seasonal nomadism, so to speak. That's probably on too small a geographical scale to show on a game that is supposedly World Depicting like Humankind (or Civ) but it illustrates the extent of variations that existed.

And Good Point: there was/is a difference between Pastoral Lifestyle and Migration. Migations happened when the environment became unsupportive (as when the 'Sahara' changed from a savannah grassland with lots of rivers and lakes into the desolate Waste it is now, in about 3900 - 3600 BCE) or somebody pushed you out (frequent occurance across the central Asian steppes) whereas, as you said, Nomad/Pastoralism was Wide Control (or 'light exploitation') over a wide area instead of intensive exploitation of an area within a day's walk of the 'city'.

And EVERYBODY migrated. Every single culture and group in Europe came from somewhere else, and most of them in several waves spread over 1000s of years. Specifically, there were no 'Greeks' in Greece before 2000 - 1500 BCE, no 'Romans' in Italy until after that, and of course, all the Turks (Seljuk, Osmanli, White Sheep and Black Sheep, etc.) were tribes out of central Asia who wandered into the Middle East looking for work - as mercenaries, then as Rulers, and before them the Medes and Persians and Parthians did the same. One of the great Fallacies perpetrated in the Civilization games ever since Civ 1 is the idea that everybody started where they are Now in 4000 BCE. Not true for any group, anywhere, and it's time we had a game that showed that and let us 'play out' the first part of the game with a little more relationship to the historical Reality.
 
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