Dogberry_Old
****** of the Pack
In MP ... the GL will have a tendancy to damp down tech swapping by the other players. So it is useful in that regard, even if you are ahead.
Dog
Dog
not so great wonders wonders
- Thread starter Le Petit Prince
- Start date
jiml_63
Transportation Guru
Marco's is also useful in MP...especially if you are on an island or there are a large number of civs that are spread out.
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Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result...
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Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result...
SvenSlayer
Berserkr
- Joined
- Aug 31, 2001
- Messages
- 184
I think the Great Library is another must. It means you don't have to worry nearly as much about your science output for a few thousand years.
Andu Indorin
Retired Druid
Again, and Again.
More or less agree with Smash on the importance of Hanging Gardens and Colossus as the two best of the early wonders, especially at higher levels. Same is true of Mike's Chapel, which rounds out the triad of the first three to obtain. Likewise, Oracle and Eiffel Tower are next to useless, and should be modified or scrapped in Civ3.
Must disagree about the U.N. though; but this reflects a difference in playing style. I never really feel satisfied in playing a game of Civ unless I unleash some howitzers on my unprepared enemies; therefore, I tend to engage in global conquest somewhat later than Smash. Likewise, since Fundamentalism has become way to easy, lately I've been trying to fight my late-game wars entirely as a Democracy, without engaging in repeated revolutions or militaristic governments. Under these circumstances, while the game is still well in hand, the U.N. becomes indispensible.
And on the Pyramids: Allan's post strikes home: Pyramids--if anything, helps those new cities in late game get to size 3 quickly to start making babies! For me, this means: Don't build it, capture it!
More or less agree with Smash on the importance of Hanging Gardens and Colossus as the two best of the early wonders, especially at higher levels. Same is true of Mike's Chapel, which rounds out the triad of the first three to obtain. Likewise, Oracle and Eiffel Tower are next to useless, and should be modified or scrapped in Civ3.
Must disagree about the U.N. though; but this reflects a difference in playing style. I never really feel satisfied in playing a game of Civ unless I unleash some howitzers on my unprepared enemies; therefore, I tend to engage in global conquest somewhat later than Smash. Likewise, since Fundamentalism has become way to easy, lately I've been trying to fight my late-game wars entirely as a Democracy, without engaging in repeated revolutions or militaristic governments. Under these circumstances, while the game is still well in hand, the U.N. becomes indispensible.
And on the Pyramids: Allan's post strikes home: Pyramids--if anything, helps those new cities in late game get to size 3 quickly to start making babies! For me, this means: Don't build it, capture it!
Rife
Chieftain
On the Great Library, like most wonders if used properly it is a very powerful and fun wonder to use. If you plan on early and often conquest you can often get by with almost no science, dump it all into taxes and you have a big advantage. Also, a challenging way to play since you give up most control over which advances are researched. Playing this style on Deity it works well.
My favorite to use is the Great Wall cause it makes early expansion so easy. I especially like walking right up to my opponents major cities with some defensive units and plunking a city there and watching the computer slaughter troops against the city walls <IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/wink.gif" border=0>
Collossus I think is one of the most powerful wonders in the game. If I plan on moving to Republic early I always try to build it.
On which single one I value the most I would probably say, Michelangelo's chapel easily first, then Sun Tzu, Leonardo's, and Adam Smith's trading company.
The rest are mostly all useful depending on what style of game you are playing, but I don't think I have ever built the lighthouse as it just expires way to early. Oracle I don't build ever either. Oh and of course Eiffel tower is useless but that goes without saying
[This message has been edited by Rife (edited September 03, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Rife (edited September 03, 2001).]
My favorite to use is the Great Wall cause it makes early expansion so easy. I especially like walking right up to my opponents major cities with some defensive units and plunking a city there and watching the computer slaughter troops against the city walls <IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/wink.gif" border=0>
Collossus I think is one of the most powerful wonders in the game. If I plan on moving to Republic early I always try to build it.
On which single one I value the most I would probably say, Michelangelo's chapel easily first, then Sun Tzu, Leonardo's, and Adam Smith's trading company.
The rest are mostly all useful depending on what style of game you are playing, but I don't think I have ever built the lighthouse as it just expires way to early. Oracle I don't build ever either. Oh and of course Eiffel tower is useless but that goes without saying
[This message has been edited by Rife (edited September 03, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Rife (edited September 03, 2001).]
allan
Cabrón
"And on the Pyramids: Allan's post strikes home: Pyramids--if anything, helps those new cities in late game get to size 3 quickly to start making babies! For me, this means: Don't build it, capture it!"
I do a bit of both, late game. I'll still settle new cities in undeveloped territory almost up till game's end--something to do, plus I find that AI cities aren't usually placed in good spots, like my cities are.... And if you can get your new city from size one to max in 30 or 40 turns (through continuous celebrating in democracy), it helps your score and gives you lots of extra money (plus I love the satisfaction or seeing a 20-year-old city of mine blow right by those ancient and venerable AI cities in pop!).
Don't YOU keep building cities up till the end? There always seems to be SOMEPLACE to build....
I do a bit of both, late game. I'll still settle new cities in undeveloped territory almost up till game's end--something to do, plus I find that AI cities aren't usually placed in good spots, like my cities are.... And if you can get your new city from size one to max in 30 or 40 turns (through continuous celebrating in democracy), it helps your score and gives you lots of extra money (plus I love the satisfaction or seeing a 20-year-old city of mine blow right by those ancient and venerable AI cities in pop!).
Don't YOU keep building cities up till the end? There always seems to be SOMEPLACE to build....
A
Agni Neres
Guest
Hi all,
Have played a long time, never thought much of Colossus until joining the GOTM and seeing what the experts do with SSC. Plan to try it myself this month. Not sure how HG fits the picture? I captured HG kinda early in GOTM 7 but, outside that one city being happy, the extra happy elsewhere didn't really seem important.
I tend to favor GW and Sun-Tzu. You put phx + settler on a trireme, drop them on an island or another continent, have the new city produce a pikeman...two units, at least one a vet, behind city walls, instantly.
To answer the question asked earlier, Sun-Tzu doesn't heal units so its not quite a Barracks in every city. But all you end up needing is a single barracks near the front line for healing troops; every city produces veteran land units. As the front moves...sell the old Barracks and make a new one.
Pyramids, I go with the poster who suggested capturing them in the mid-to-end game. I tend to keep cities at size 12 for a long time to keep the pollution down. They can still produce an Alpine or Cavalry in 2 turns with Factory + Hoover (#1 wonder by far). A really productive size 12 city can make a Bomber in 3 turns, with no noticeable pollution.
Cheers,
Agni
Have played a long time, never thought much of Colossus until joining the GOTM and seeing what the experts do with SSC. Plan to try it myself this month. Not sure how HG fits the picture? I captured HG kinda early in GOTM 7 but, outside that one city being happy, the extra happy elsewhere didn't really seem important.
I tend to favor GW and Sun-Tzu. You put phx + settler on a trireme, drop them on an island or another continent, have the new city produce a pikeman...two units, at least one a vet, behind city walls, instantly.
To answer the question asked earlier, Sun-Tzu doesn't heal units so its not quite a Barracks in every city. But all you end up needing is a single barracks near the front line for healing troops; every city produces veteran land units. As the front moves...sell the old Barracks and make a new one.
Pyramids, I go with the poster who suggested capturing them in the mid-to-end game. I tend to keep cities at size 12 for a long time to keep the pollution down. They can still produce an Alpine or Cavalry in 2 turns with Factory + Hoover (#1 wonder by far). A really productive size 12 city can make a Bomber in 3 turns, with no noticeable pollution.
Cheers,
Agni
Gregski
Mostly Harmless
Lately my strategy has been to build the KR Crusade, Colossus, Hanging Gardens in my science city, and outbuild the universe. With the Crusade I can build caravans in 2-3 turns (to allow wonders in other cities or to quick build when the tech becomes available), the Gardens allow We Love the Manager days by greatly reducing the lux rate and entertainers, and the Colossus is needed for the science. With these three in a fast growing city (preferable to have a few grain squares) I can easily win the science race and can fight battles very effectively. In higher difficulty levels I can rarely build all three in one city. Naturally, with a city like this, all other required wonders are built without problems. Pollution is not a real problem either, the settlers can clean up.
Greg.
Greg.
starlifter
Deity
- Joined
- Jun 17, 2001
- Messages
- 4,210
Since this is a "worst wonder" list, I'll say that it really does depend on one's play style to a large extent.
But there are several wonders that are pretty much worthless with most styles and levels. First worst is (hands down) the Eiffel Tower. Esp. if you play Civ II MGE!
For me (and I am a strong naval advocate), the Lighthouse is worthless. It is the only wonder I did not build in GOTM 7 (captured it from a civ that never built a ship the entire game). That said, there could be a few situations in which the Lighthouse would be OK (tiny island one or two city island, in a huge ocean).
The Oracle is a waste at any level. My science rate often obsoletes the Oracle before any civ can build it. This is because, at Deity, the two most valuable wonders in the game (for me) are Michelangelos Chapel and JS Bach. Hands down. And hence I usually advance right to Theology to keep my empire growing. This make the Oracle not even worth the shields to build it.
In general, I don't build the Hanging Gardens, mainly because they are obsoleted so quickly. But if they are available and I'm in an early republic, they are quite useful. But I won't take HG if it affect MC or BC.
Another useless wonder (for me) is the Manhattan Project. I don't want to destroy the terrain and population that I will soon conquer anyway, so why make nukes, LOL... Plus, defending against nukes is expensive and hurts growth.
In general, the Great Library is worthless, though I often can get it built anyway. I used to think it was critical, when I played as a slow-growing warmonger. In that case (low science), it can be useful. But I usually gift techs to the AI anyway, and my science rate is usually better than the AI at Deity. If it is not, a few Dips will take whatever I need, particularly in Mid game.
I've comments with my 2 cents worth in other posts about the "best" wonders and why, so (mercifully for you all
), I won't rehash all that here!
But there are several wonders that are pretty much worthless with most styles and levels. First worst is (hands down) the Eiffel Tower. Esp. if you play Civ II MGE!
For me (and I am a strong naval advocate), the Lighthouse is worthless. It is the only wonder I did not build in GOTM 7 (captured it from a civ that never built a ship the entire game). That said, there could be a few situations in which the Lighthouse would be OK (tiny island one or two city island, in a huge ocean).
The Oracle is a waste at any level. My science rate often obsoletes the Oracle before any civ can build it. This is because, at Deity, the two most valuable wonders in the game (for me) are Michelangelos Chapel and JS Bach. Hands down. And hence I usually advance right to Theology to keep my empire growing. This make the Oracle not even worth the shields to build it.
In general, I don't build the Hanging Gardens, mainly because they are obsoleted so quickly. But if they are available and I'm in an early republic, they are quite useful. But I won't take HG if it affect MC or BC.
Another useless wonder (for me) is the Manhattan Project. I don't want to destroy the terrain and population that I will soon conquer anyway, so why make nukes, LOL... Plus, defending against nukes is expensive and hurts growth.
In general, the Great Library is worthless, though I often can get it built anyway. I used to think it was critical, when I played as a slow-growing warmonger. In that case (low science), it can be useful. But I usually gift techs to the AI anyway, and my science rate is usually better than the AI at Deity. If it is not, a few Dips will take whatever I need, particularly in Mid game.
I've comments with my 2 cents worth in other posts about the "best" wonders and why, so (mercifully for you all
duke o' york
It don't mean a thing....
I've said it elsewhere and I'm about to say it again:
The Apollo Program is my favourite wonder because it is vital to winning by conquest in single player when you've got the civs resurrecting themselves. You also get to find more whales and wheat squares to build huge cities in no time. I can't believe no-one's mentioned it so far.
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in vino veritas
The Apollo Program is my favourite wonder because it is vital to winning by conquest in single player when you've got the civs resurrecting themselves. You also get to find more whales and wheat squares to build huge cities in no time. I can't believe no-one's mentioned it so far.
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in vino veritas
SvenSlayer
Berserkr
- Joined
- Aug 31, 2001
- Messages
- 184
The Apollo Program is useful. Of course, its usefulness depends on how much exploring you do. Sometimes, since you can only build it late in the game, once you get to build the Apollo Program you've discovered most of the map already anyway.
F
floppa21
Guest
Yah, that Oracle is the bestest...
Dan Edtl
Chieftain
You have all ignored a very useful wonder that I will sometimes incorporate into my strategy. Early on in the game, Marco Polo's embassy not only establishes embassies with all civ's, it also permits you to make contact with all civs and trade technologies. Its better than the great library
1) because its cheaper,
2) you can start construction earlier and 3) you don't have to wait for a second civ to acquire the same technology before you can trade for it.
I have found the AI to be very cooperative when it comes to trading techs early on in the game.
You can also demand tribute from civ's that are too far away to threaten you in the event of war.
1) because its cheaper,
2) you can start construction earlier and 3) you don't have to wait for a second civ to acquire the same technology before you can trade for it.
I have found the AI to be very cooperative when it comes to trading techs early on in the game.
You can also demand tribute from civ's that are too far away to threaten you in the event of war.
I find King Richards Crusade very handy. Especially if your government is sumthing like Republic or Monarchy and you want a massive army. It also helps speed up creation of other wonders.
Alot of people have forgotten Copernicus's Observatory. Basically useless though, only raises science output 50%.....
Alot of people have forgotten Copernicus's Observatory. Basically useless though, only raises science output 50%.....
jc011
Rider of Rohan
starlifter
Deity
- Joined
- Jun 17, 2001
- Messages
- 4,210
InfStack_
Chieftain
How many posts have there been on Wonders? I wonder? Oh course the over-all strategy should always be "Do what is best for your civ at the time to enjoy the game."
In saying that... What are typically the most useless Wonders for me? How about the ones that I rarely build, or some even never! I still win games.
Most useless... never built by InfStack!<br />~ Hanging Gardens<br />~ Oracle<br />~ Lighthouse (good band, bad wonder)<br />~ King Richards <br />~ Sun Tzu<br />~ Great Wall <br />~ Effi. Tower<br />~ Statue of Lib.<br />~ Magellan Expidition (all go and capture it if it is a huge sea world)
Middle of Road Wonders... sometimes build by InfStack!<br />~ Cure for Cancer<br />~ Manhatten Project (we all like nuke free worlds)<br />~ Pyramids<br />~ Leo's WS (I'll build it to avoid others building it)<br />~ Apollo Program (she might be game over by this point!)<br />~ Women's Sufferage (Police stations do the same thing, it is not as crutial as Civ I)<br />~ Great Library (sissy wonder)<br />~ Marco Polo's (usually get more tech from this than Darwin's Yoyage)<br />~ Darwin's Voyage
Sweet Wonders... always built by InfStack!
~ Colusess (must have, get it early and often! Always my first wonder.)<br />~ If you get the Colusess it is a no-brainer to get Copericus and Sir Issac's going in the same city with trade-routes, library and University. How can you turn down an opportunity to get over 250 beakers/turn from one city.<br />~ Adam's Smiths Trading Company (HUGE help with Science due to $ saved)<br />~ Pyramids, always nice<br />~ Seti, always nice, though late<br />~ Micheal's Cathedral, always VERY nice<br />~ ShakeSpeare's Threatre, important that others don't get it. Great in Democracy.<br />~ JS Bach's, always nice.<br />~ Hoover Dam, must have.
Remember, it is whatever works for you!!
Enjoy!
In saying that... What are typically the most useless Wonders for me? How about the ones that I rarely build, or some even never! I still win games.
Most useless... never built by InfStack!<br />~ Hanging Gardens<br />~ Oracle<br />~ Lighthouse (good band, bad wonder)<br />~ King Richards <br />~ Sun Tzu<br />~ Great Wall <br />~ Effi. Tower<br />~ Statue of Lib.<br />~ Magellan Expidition (all go and capture it if it is a huge sea world)
Middle of Road Wonders... sometimes build by InfStack!<br />~ Cure for Cancer<br />~ Manhatten Project (we all like nuke free worlds)<br />~ Pyramids<br />~ Leo's WS (I'll build it to avoid others building it)<br />~ Apollo Program (she might be game over by this point!)<br />~ Women's Sufferage (Police stations do the same thing, it is not as crutial as Civ I)<br />~ Great Library (sissy wonder)<br />~ Marco Polo's (usually get more tech from this than Darwin's Yoyage)<br />~ Darwin's Voyage
Sweet Wonders... always built by InfStack!
~ Colusess (must have, get it early and often! Always my first wonder.)<br />~ If you get the Colusess it is a no-brainer to get Copericus and Sir Issac's going in the same city with trade-routes, library and University. How can you turn down an opportunity to get over 250 beakers/turn from one city.<br />~ Adam's Smiths Trading Company (HUGE help with Science due to $ saved)<br />~ Pyramids, always nice<br />~ Seti, always nice, though late<br />~ Micheal's Cathedral, always VERY nice<br />~ ShakeSpeare's Threatre, important that others don't get it. Great in Democracy.<br />~ JS Bach's, always nice.<br />~ Hoover Dam, must have.
Remember, it is whatever works for you!!
Enjoy!
In Deity, the most useless wonder is the Eiffel Tower as improved position in diplomacy is practicly useless in the game! My list of priorities when playing the game in deity mode are Collusus, hanging gardens, Leonardos workshop, michaelangelos chapel, Adam smith trade inc (releves a great burden in tax),Magellans thing (makes subarines at end of game move 6), UN, Womens suff. and cure for cancer. I choose these wonders cause i normally play as a dempcracy.<br />The most useless wonders are eiffel tower, great library, sun tzu war acad. (after enough fights any unit becomes vet.), Statue of lib ( for some reason the zulus set this as their highest priority).
ferenginar
Grand Nagus
For me the most useless is the Eiffel Tower, I don't care what the other civs think of me, or how long they take to get over my backstabbing antagonistic expansionist world domineering policies. I lets another civ build it they I take the city for the population, the destruction and the points.
