Definately need to have gifting re-enabled, and let the players police themselves. Really takes away from me and a friends co-op games, and we never abused it by gifting adepts or anything, but it's nice to be able to help an ally with some units without going to war.
Now I miss unit gifting.
- Thread starter Minor Annoyance
- Start date
Well although it would be nice to let players gift units in Multiplayer, this is two edged sword - It would at the same time RUIN multiplayer, exactly for the same reason. How could you possibly know that your enemy isn't exploiting gifting?
Letting players police themselves clearly isn't a solution here.
Letting players police themselves clearly isn't a solution here.
Minor Annoyance
Deity
I'm sure they plan to restore it when they fix the exploits, but they're probably dealing with other things currently.
single player game.
exploits.
worldbuilder.
police yourself.
Somehow these four don't get along together quite well...
On a first thought, I'd remove it from multiplayer but not from single player.
Although Kael already stated somewhere, that there are way to many exploits provided by gifting, and that a designer has to draw a line what's "right" or wrong.
Of course you could say "if I was cheating I would open worldbuilder", but - well, you had to do this, you would KNOW that you have cheated by using worldbuilder, but if you just use an option which the game enginge provides for being used, it's not like active cheating, but it feels more like a flaw (at least: to the people who know the exploit).
Thought to the end, a flawed "feature" has nothing to search in multiplayer.
And for single player, or also 'testing', what's the thing we all somehow do until V1.00, it has it's logic, to cut something that has been reported to create flaws, in order to get the people to test and/or enjoy other things.
Let's talk about the report of Willgar's. Sure, it may be a reduction of his strategic choices, but on the other hand, he had to fight this war, and therefore he had the chance that he could gather more experience about another aspect of the game (instead of the already (to him) known proxy war - choice) -> to defend a neighbour rightousley. (how the hell is this word spelled?)
On the other hand would a setup option give players the ability to decide if they want to test the gifting thoroughly, which units are okay which are not okay, so these informations could be provided to the design team in some kind of formula - which yet fails to exist of course and could be complicated to put up.
you could say it WAS reported that gifting can produce flaws for a quite numberous count of people, therefore it was disabled and it's fixing has been delayed for other - eventually even more exciting features V0.33 will provide, even more exciting than gifting for sure.
exploits.
worldbuilder.
police yourself.
Somehow these four don't get along together quite well...
On a first thought, I'd remove it from multiplayer but not from single player.
Although Kael already stated somewhere, that there are way to many exploits provided by gifting, and that a designer has to draw a line what's "right" or wrong.
Of course you could say "if I was cheating I would open worldbuilder", but - well, you had to do this, you would KNOW that you have cheated by using worldbuilder, but if you just use an option which the game enginge provides for being used, it's not like active cheating, but it feels more like a flaw (at least: to the people who know the exploit).
Thought to the end, a flawed "feature" has nothing to search in multiplayer.
And for single player, or also 'testing', what's the thing we all somehow do until V1.00, it has it's logic, to cut something that has been reported to create flaws, in order to get the people to test and/or enjoy other things.
Let's talk about the report of Willgar's. Sure, it may be a reduction of his strategic choices, but on the other hand, he had to fight this war, and therefore he had the chance that he could gather more experience about another aspect of the game (instead of the already (to him) known proxy war - choice) -> to defend a neighbour rightousley. (how the hell is this word spelled?)
On the other hand would a setup option give players the ability to decide if they want to test the gifting thoroughly, which units are okay which are not okay, so these informations could be provided to the design team in some kind of formula - which yet fails to exist of course and could be complicated to put up.
you could say it WAS reported that gifting can produce flaws for a quite numberous count of people, therefore it was disabled and it's fixing has been delayed for other - eventually even more exciting features V0.33 will provide, even more exciting than gifting for sure.
So this is about making the player feel better about themselves? Either way, if you have any sort of intelligence, you know its cheating or exploiting, and its a SINGLE PLAYER GAME, let those players have the option. Is there some Ladder Tournament for Single Player games going on here that I don't know about which you all are so worried about cheaters and exploiters?
For Multiplayer, I still say let the Players police themselves. Honestly. how many multiplayer games of FFH are played here with more than 2 human players? If its between two humans, they each know when the other is exploiting. It's not like you can call up the AI and work out a deal to keep switching units around to help exploit the game so you can get the upper hand on the other Human player, computer AI won't just go around gifting you units like that.
If ANYTHING, they need a option in the game settings when you set up a game to turn Gifting On, or Off. Don't give me that crap about someone feeling better about themselves because they "don't KNOW it's cheating unlike worldbuilder", that's just silly and sounds like a personal grief you have with this aspect, keep those with yourself.
If a player wants to cheat, he will cheat, are you suggesting we put a ban on editing the xml files so people can't change things for their own benefit? And it's all cheating in the end, no matter how you go about it, let the players decide for themselves if they want to cheat. It's their single player games, and you have no right to tell them how to play it.
For the games a friend and I play, there are some instances when he could use a handful of warriors to help fight off a big invasion, and I can't afford to go to war with all of the people he is at war with. So I will send some warriors down his way and gift them to him, this is how unit gifting was meant to be, and it should be in place for that reason. We are well aware of some (and I'm sure not all) of the exploits that unit gifting can bring, but we simply don't use them because it's no fun.
Kael said that there is a difference between cheating through worldbuilder and through something that the designers themselves provided. Many new players would actually be proud when they discover the exploits with gifting, as they figured out a way to play better and more efficient. Then they would discover how broken that is and rightfully start complaining. Any way, there won't be any gifting back until it's all fixed. And honestly, letting players 'police themselves' is absurd and it is not in any way a foundation a game should be designed on. Especially not a game with brilliant design like FfH.
@PacoDeth
FFH2 is great fun, because even on "beta" it's more finished than most products that come out nowadays, the team really looks for the last detail and makes it senseful and thematic and fair.
for testing purposes it would possibly make sense to re-enable it. But on a second thought: Gifting units was enabled and tested for quite some time, and I think before it will come back, it has to be fixed, to pass along the Quality Check of this excellent mod.
edit: and by the way, I miss gifting units too, but there are more important things at the moment, than what I miss... I did not know about the exploits until it was removed due to them... but that does not change the matter, that there are exploits and quite a bunch of, if this causes the removal of a feature.
FFH2 is great fun, because even on "beta" it's more finished than most products that come out nowadays, the team really looks for the last detail and makes it senseful and thematic and fair.
for testing purposes it would possibly make sense to re-enable it. But on a second thought: Gifting units was enabled and tested for quite some time, and I think before it will come back, it has to be fixed, to pass along the Quality Check of this excellent mod.
True, as soon as gifting does this and only this it may come back.
edit: and by the way, I miss gifting units too, but there are more important things at the moment, than what I miss... I did not know about the exploits until it was removed due to them... but that does not change the matter, that there are exploits and quite a bunch of, if this causes the removal of a feature.
Blackmantle
King
Kael allready hinted somewhere that some way down the road gifting may be reimplemented using a new interesting mechanic (if they can find a good way, which i am rather confident they will given their record. 
).
So as usual: Wait and see. What you may be getting might become better than what you have been used to. And if we get really lucky even AI might be able to handle it
(and kick you behind with it 
, so please no complaining afterwards if it does. 
).
Until then help making FFH 2 a better game by testing the other aspects / reporting on problems with them instead of asking for an reimplementation of a broken feature (or modmod it for yourselves). The Team allready has set its sight on gifting.
).So as usual: Wait and see. What you may be getting might become better than what you have been used to. And if we get really lucky even AI might be able to handle it
(and kick you behind with it , so please no complaining afterwards if it does. ).Until then help making FFH 2 a better game by testing the other aspects / reporting on problems with them instead of asking for an reimplementation of a broken feature (or modmod it for yourselves). The Team allready has set its sight on gifting.
xienwolf
Deity
It is done in the DLL. Very short and simple modification, easily removed or made more complicated. But only "easily" in as far as any DLL change is for the person wanting to do such a thing.
MagisterCultuum
Great Sage
How easy are we talking abut here? It it just involves Kael uncommenting some code that Kael commented out in one or two places, then I'm definitely adding gifting back in my modmod.
I still think it would be better to make gifting a game option though. Maybe have one option that eliminates it entirely and another that restricts the giftable units?
I was also thinking that it would be good to add a tag to units and to promotions that prevent the units from being gifted.
I still think it would be better to make gifting a game option though. Maybe have one option that eliminates it entirely and another that restricts the giftable units?
I was also thinking that it would be good to add a tag to units and to promotions that prevent the units from being gifted.
rocklikeafool
Warmaster
I really want this back too. Know everyone's said that, but the more of us say, the more they'll be pressured to do it. But yeah, please reinstate this, FfH team.
But yeah, please reinstate this, FfH team.
xienwolf
Deity
in CvUnit.cpp:
Comment the line Kael added and gifting is back to how it was. Modify it to have some IF statements, and it becomes conditional in your own manner.
Code:
bool CvUnit::canGift(bool bTestVisible, bool bTestTransport)
{
//FfH: Added by Kael 04/22/2008 (to disable gifting)
return false;
//FfH: End AddComment the line Kael added and gifting is back to how it was. Modify it to have some IF statements, and it becomes conditional in your own manner.
rocklikeafool
Warmaster
So, wat you're sayin is if we edit it in the manner you show above, we have unit giftin back?
MagisterCultuum
Great Sage
Yeah, apparently. Of course, you then have to compile a new DLL and use that instead of the normal one.
rocklikeafool
Warmaster
Well, how the hell do I do that? Ugh...
DuckAndCower
Warlord
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2008
- Messages
- 215
Ask Google for a C++ compiler. Edit CvUnit.cpp as described, then compile away. Replace the old .dll with the new.
That is, if I'm remembering correctly. It's been about 7 years since I switch Comp Sci for English
That is, if I'm remembering correctly. It's been about 7 years since I switch Comp Sci for English
MagisterCultuum
Great Sage
xienwolf
Deity
I didn't show you how to edit it, just what to edit. You want the above code to be changed to:
Adding those 2 slashes removes the block on Gifting and makes it work the old way. But you can also replace that line with other conditionals if you want to allow gifting only in certain cases (like make it say if the game is NOT a single Player Game, block gifting, otherwise, run it like normal. Or set up a Game Option so that people can choose to enable Gifting on an individual game basis)
NOTE: Adding a gameoption will require a little bit of code in other areas as well, to actually create the option.
Code:
bool CvUnit::canGift(bool bTestVisible, bool bTestTransport)
{
//FfH: Added by Kael 04/22/2008 (to disable gifting)
// return false;
//FfH: End AddAdding those 2 slashes removes the block on Gifting and makes it work the old way. But you can also replace that line with other conditionals if you want to allow gifting only in certain cases (like make it say if the game is NOT a single Player Game, block gifting, otherwise, run it like normal. Or set up a Game Option so that people can choose to enable Gifting on an individual game basis)
NOTE: Adding a gameoption will require a little bit of code in other areas as well, to actually create the option.
MagisterCultuum
Great Sage
Do you care to show us how to create new game options too? That could be quite useful.
