Now this is annoying... (to Firaxis)

[smallstepforman]

I'm Mao on a quest to conquer Persia in the ancient era. I have 8 Swordsmen and 8 Spearmen, a decent combination for that era. I plant all 16 units outside Persopolis. The AI have one turn to weaken the offensive force before the main strike. The AI hit with 5 immortals. Civ3 chooses to use the SWORDSMAN (3/2/1) to defend against the strike, instead of using the SPEARMEN (1/2/1). They both have the same defensive value, so the best defender algorithm chooses the SWORDSMAN in preference to the SPEARMEN.

The AI attack (5 immortals) manage to take out 4 swordsman, leaving me with 3 untouched swordsman, one damaged, and 8 untouched spearmen. On my attack, the 4 swordsman do a decent job and win all battles. But here is the problem - I HAVE NO MORE ATTACKING UNITS. The AI have 2 defenders left in Persopolis, and I am left with 8 Spearmen to attack. The Spearmen do not stand a chance.

So this is what annoys me. The Civ3 best defender algorithm should change, so that when choosing between 2 units with equal defense ratings and equal health, it should choose the unit with a lower attack rating to defend. That way, ATTACKING UNITS attack DEFENDING UNITS first.

On the plus side, when I'm attacking, the immortals (4/2/1) are the first to die, leaving only spearmen (1/2/1). This makes the AI counterattack less lethal. This just doesn't seem fair, dont you agree.

FIRAXIS, patch this please.

 

[sumthinelse]

I think the algorithm also uses the defender with the most hit points left to keep your defending units from dying if multiple units have the same defense factor. Did the swordsman and spearman have the same number of hit points (the swordsmen were veteran and the spearmen regular or the spearmen were damaged)?

I wonder if the program logic uses the order that they are stacked in (if multiple units are equal defenders it chooses the next one on the stack)? If that is true, you might think that if you moved your units individually it would place the units in a different order, but I don't understand how units get ordered in a stack. I remember moving a horseman into a stack and it went into the middle, not the bottom or the top....

 

[Klasanov]

Yeah, that is kind of messed up. Although if I were you I would have just sent a 16 horde swordsman party to take on Persia. Since they have the same defense either way. And I dunno, 8 1/3 chances with favorable results needing to come out only a few times might work.

Time to re-build though, I guess.

 

[Machi]

sad really Fireaxis has a wiked game but then they go and ruin it with one of the shodiest AI engines I have seen. The AI stupidity is reknown (only a reflection of the time/energy to program).

Don't hold your breath waiting for Fireaxis to respond to your concern.

 

[sabo]

Thank god you aren't playing civ II when a stack would be attacted EVERYONE would die, I just couldn't believe that...

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

The program chooses the unit for defence that zhas the highest chance of winning the fight. So, sometimes, a lower D may be more than offsett in overall result by a higher HP number. e.g.: I have an army of 3 elite Modern Armour and a Mech Inf. The army will defend

The big thing would be having a list of defenders in a certain order. The program should go down the list and pich the unit it finds first. Like this: you have an Immortal, 2 Spearmen, 1 Rifleman, 1 Swordsman. Which should be chosen:

List:
Mech Inf.
Infantry
Modern Armor
Tank
Rifleman
Cavalry
Musketman
Pikeman
Knight
Spearman
Swordsman
Warrior

UUs are directly under the unit with the equivalent D value, so the Immortal would be under the Swordsman here.

Note that the Modern Armor will defend after the Infantry!!!

Now this basically is almost how the game works, just one change:
each step in the above list should represent the shift from regular to elite in HP
That way, even a slightly hurt veteran Spearman would come before the unhurt elite Immortal.

Or, we could get a new command that can be applied to any unit at any time: 'un-defend' = go to the bottom of the defnce queue.

 

[sealman]

I would like the option to choose which unit defends when a stack is attacked. Would avoid the original issue mentioned above but would make the AI moves longer. No more ending your turn... doing something constructive with your time and getting back for your next turn.

 

[Japher]

I hate the defender selection too...

I have, however, found that when performing an attack like that using the spearmen as an attacker can be rather advantagous, especially against swordsman. I.e. attack first with half the spearman, tack with all your swordsman, and if not yet victorious retreat or attack with the rest of your spearman. Yes, attack with your spearman... While they have a low attack, for some reason I have beat swordsman with the spearman (even when they have four or more stacked in a city square). I also don't mind sacrificing a few spearman since they are cheap.

 

[royfurr]

ALL HAIL THE MIGHTY SPEARMAN!!!

BOW BEFORE HIS MIGHT!

The Mighty Spearman! Defender of the Realm, Master of All He Surveys! Defender of the Faith, Protecter of the Weak, Scrouge of the Tank!


And don't forget his faitful companion and conveyance, the Unsinkable Galley ... World-Wide Exploration at its best!




OT, before the Mods delete me ... while the order of selection of the defending unit isn't clear, and is somethimes poor and VERY ANNOYING, as in smallstepforman's case above, it isn't always so bad. And to have to provide input in every battle (at the time of occurance) involving my units defending would be most annoying. Same for defining a defense status for stacks.

Instead, FIRAXIS HEAR US! WE BESCEECH YOU ... EXPLAIN HOW THE AI ORDERS DEFENDERS!

If we definitely understood the programs logic of selection, we can debate it, and perhaps suggest an improvement to Firaxis. Changing something like that should not, I think, be too hard programming wise, and this should not have to major a "fallout effect" on the game, so it would not be that big of a playtesting deal. (MIGHT BE ... it all depends on how the program logic works for this.)

ANYWAY without some more info from Firaxis its hard to say ...

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

royfurr: the defenders is the units wiht the highest probability of winning the fight. Take the combat calculator and find out. Stupid thing here: a strong attack unit with the same D but 1 HP more will go before the defender - thus will usually be too hurt for a counterattack.

 

[Dark Sheer]

I believe the solution we are looking for here is called sacrifice.

Every chess player know that if you can sacrifice a piece to gain an advantage in position its almost always worth more than the real point in that lost piece. However, in Civ3, it always assume that you wish to win every battle (with spearman has a chance to beat tank I think thats a fair wish ). Therefore it is always the unit that has the highest chance of winning being choose as the defender.