Number of Civs on highlands map

Mesodius

Warmonger
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Sep 15, 2006
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I've recently decided to play on the 'Highlands' map with snaky mountain ranges at the recommendation of another post I saw, and it is truly great fun, creating nice pockets of arable land and plenty of chokepoints. However, not being used to playing on a map with no oceans, it seems the standard number of Civs for this map (in this case, a large map) creates far too much empty space between Civs until late into the game.

My question is: Does anyone have a good estimate for the number of Civs (and city states) one should have on an "all land" map such as this for each map size to make civ distances comparable to maps with oceans? Thanks for any input.
 
Just don't play Incans or it is too easy. And even Carthage can great, the ability to cross mountains more than makes up for the lack of oceans.

Or just go liberty and fill up the space yourself (or add Hiawatha etc)
 
I don't have much experience with all land maps, but considering that on most "normal" maps (with the exception of Archipelago) about half the tiles seem to be water, I would imagine that doubling the number of civs (and doubling the number of city-states) would make sense.
 
Self Founded if going Tradition: 4 including capital
Self Founded if going Liberty: Usually 6 to 8 including capital depending upon map size, how much land, and how many unique luxuries are near you. For Liberty, its very often the case that the lack of luxury diversity (in areas not already claimed by city states) will be the biggest limit on how many cities you should self found. Special circumstances can sometimes increase the number further (e.g. Playing Spain and Fountain of Youth being near you)

Conquered cities: As many as you like provided that each kept city brings in something of major value not already within 3 hexes of another city.
(e.g. a luxury you can use or sell for another luxury, strategic resources you can use or sell)
 
On a highlands map, I have found the same trouble with excess space between civs. On deity or immortal, I would add one extra AI and two cs (for a standard map). On emperor or below, add two civs and four cs. That's my personal preference - the cs are frequently clustered in the unworkable corners and the AI feels a little more natural as it expands.

By the way, you should TOTALLY play as the inca on this map. Yes, it's overpowered. That is the point. It's a blast, but I have to warn you: you will be sad on your following game when your units seem so slow.
 
I am indeed playing as the Inca, even though I am finding them grossly overpowered on this map. I am more playing with them because it's interesting and fun rather than for some great challenge. I keep hunting for the best "coves" of hills surrounded by mountains to make my cities with long snaky roads in the hills between when possible, and setting up forts in chokepoints to control the flow of traffic. Next time I'll add more civilizations using the suggestions here and decrease the map size a bit because though all this exploration of hidden, empty valleys is kinda fun (especially when I find some natural wonder, I can just imagine and role-play it in my head), it's too much empty space and I find myself spending too much time going back and forth fighting barbarian villages. Thanks, folks.
 
My question is: Does anyone have a good estimate for the number of Civs (and city states) one should have on an "all land" map such as this for each map size to make civ distances comparable to maps with oceans? Thanks for any input.

Well, I find on normal maps the City States default value of 2X to be too high [I find 1X to be about right], and so for me on an all land map like Highlands / Great Plains with all the extra land, the default 2X city states would be about right.

So my rough guess is that 2X city state on a normal map roughly equates to 3X for Highlands / Great Plains if you aren't also changing number of major civs.
 
Just finished a standard size Highlands map with about 13 Civs and 15 CS.

A pretty quiet game until late on due to the caps still having big distances between each other. Maybe simply doubling the standard numbers would be better.
 
Highlands map can make really warped starting locations, causing city state settlers to spawn on mountain tiles which promptly kills them. But yeah, Incas are majorly OP on a map like that, which is why I dropped the nerfhammer on them in the ICL by making it OCC
 
Yes, a standard Highlands map has significantly more land tiles than, say, a standard Pangaea map. But is it not the case that the standard Highlands map is smaller (on the X and Y axis) as compared to Pangaea?

On a highlands map, I have found the same trouble with excess space between civs. On deity or immortal, I would add one extra AI and two cs (for a standard map). On emperor or below, add two civs and four cs.

Based on my very limited experience with Highlands map, this seems like excellent advise to me. I would not think you want to change the settings too much beyond the defaults.

Well, I find on normal maps the City States default value of 2X to be too high...

Just finished a standard size Highlands map with about 13 Civs and 15 CS.

I definitely don’t agree with messing with the 2:1 ratio for CS:AI numbers. It effects too many aspects of the game.
 
I wonder if it a flaw in my strategy, but I *always* do poorly on highlands (immortal, huge, dense mountains, ranges), even when I choose Inca. I even lost when I miraculously got Petra with a few terrace farms producing 6 food and 2 hammers.

I suspect that this is due to other nations being too far apart or separated by mountains, and therefor not spending resources on war efforts. (I have never tried overloading on civs - that sounds like a swell idea.)

Anyone know why this is?
 
I wonder if it a flaw in my strategy, but I *always* do poorly on highlands (immortal, huge, dense mountains, ranges), even when I choose Inca. I even lost when I miraculously got Petra with a few terrace farms producing 6 food and 2 hammers.

I suspect that this is due to other nations being too far apart or separated by mountains, and therefor not spending resources on war efforts. (I have never tried overloading on civs - that sounds like a swell idea.)

Anyone know why this is?

When playing the Inca on Immortal on such a map, you should (in theory) be able to outperform the AI, even if everyone is effectively playing isolated. Of course, it's possible your fundamentals are off somehow. (i.e. You expand too late, or not enough, or maybe you don't emphasize research or growth enough, etc. etc.) But since you specify that this only happens on Highland maps, let's assume that you do the usual stuff OK.

Given that, here are a couple possible things that might be going on:
* In order to shine, Inca absolutely must be near mountains... ideally all cities will be founded directly next to one. Since your roads don't cost anything, it's OK for Incan cities to be really spread out. Take advantage of that: when founding cities, emphasize mountains rather than the continuous, compact empire shape that most civs favor.

* Don't be afraid to buy tiles, even if you go Tradition. The tiles that you want most (hills that are next to mountains) are almost always the tiles that cities' tile chooser selects last. In addition, since your empire is probably going to be spread out, there's a good chance that you can't rely on one of your neighboring cities to help claim tiles.

*Prioritize Construction & build Terrace Farms ASAP. They really are that good. It's extremely common to have multiple hill tiles with 2+mountains near each city, and each tile like that is amazing. Of course, they become even more amazing with each additional adjacent mountain.

*Inca usually do *very* well with Tradition, since they often have large amounts of food. (Tradition's growth bonus becomes more valuable the more excess food you have.) It's possible that Liberty might be better in your situation, since there's a lot of empty land around you that Liberty would help you colonize. However... I suspect that even then you would be better off going Tradition & just blowing past the usual 4 city limit that Tradition empires often adhere to.
 
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