OCC barbs...

HMonster

Chieftain
Joined
Feb 22, 2005
Messages
54
Location
Wellingborough, England
Im trying out OCC, getting the hang of it slowly....starting building my spaceship, and then i get barb uprising...and this many came from ONE uprise!

barb2gn.jpg


Is it common to see them this size? And being a OCC, i had very little defence in my city.

Any tips on how to avoid this in future?

Thanks!
 
Well I have never seen that many Barbs at once.
Regarding defensive units: in an OCC game you can afford to have many defensive units. After all theres just ONE city to defend you know.
Also if that one is lost youre a goner, so pay the price, and invest heavily on defence.
 
That many units looks like "Barbarian Wrath," a special setting not ordinarily available without modifying one of the game files. (I believe it is rules.txt, but don't quote me on that when I am at work and cannot verify it.)
Regardless of whether you are dealing with Barbarian Wrath or just Raging Hordes of barbarians, the defense of the OCC itself should not be a problem. Provided that this is your first and only city, a bug or feature of the game will make all barbarian attacks against the city fail as long as you have a unit (any unit, even a dip) in the city. (N.B.: This does not work against other civs.)
Of course, that doesn't protect your surrounding land. Your size 34 city isn't going to be very happy (or well-fed) if barbarian fanatics are making bonfires on your farmland. Perhaps you could go toe-to-toe with the barbarians - build or bribe some good attack units - but that seems to be contrary to the basic philosophy of the OCC, in which the only units you really want to be building are caravans and (later) freight). Any other use of your resources is, to a greater or lesser extent, a distraction to be avoided. Probably the best way to deal with uprisings, then, is avoidance: uprisings will not occur in developed territory, so build roads, roads, roads. You want to be roading to the other civs' cities, anyway, to promote fast delivery of your caravans.
 
I saw an outbreak like that playing an OCC in one of the GOTMs in the 20's, I think. When you are alone on a medium sized island you can get "hot spots" where Barbs spawn spontaneously, and if left alone more and more will pop out each time. I think I saw 20-30 Barb units, mostly Rifle and Artillery, before I could kill the unit guarding the spawning tile (they all come from one tile, so kill the one on top of the stack and they stop coming out). If they start spawning again from the same tile, build a road on it and they will spawn elsewhere.

One strategy for dealing with large amounts is to bribe one unit to kill two others. Bribing Barb units is fairly cheap, just twice the shield build cost plus one or two. Try to bribe a unit with two or three movement points, and exploit terrain to give yourself a defensive advantage if you are going for the Barb Leader. Fortification helps, but realize that it takes one full turn to emplace before you get the defensive bonus.

Try to keep those Barbs off your city radius - they will destroy irrigation and roads if given time. Sometimes it helps to spread a few Dips around the outskirts of your city, both as warning of approaching trouble and as opportunity bribers.

I'm kind of suprised you did not build that city on a river, which gets you two trade arrows from the beginning rather than one. Note that all the "special" terrain come in patterns - if you explore before you settle, then look at the patterns you should find spots where your city can reach three and even four specials at the same time. For instance, although it is a terrible terrain spot, there is a Desert spot in the graphic you posted that can reach the Whale, the Wine, and the Oasis. Try to find a spot like that, but with grass and rivers if possible, for your OCC site.
 
Some good advice there, thanks!


ElephantU, this was one of my first tries at OCC, and i was simply trying to get ocean access, but minimize the actual amount of ocean squares, due to food restrictions later on, althought the early trade would be nice.

In my current game i have access to whale, wheat, pheasant, and coal, and its making a huge difference. Im aware of the L shaped patterns too, although this seems to only occur in batches of 4 when i DONT randomise resource locations...is this true?

The diplomat is something i used previously, but kinda neglected in this particular game. And yes, those nearest three all pillaged, leaving my starving, and killed off my engineers before they could re-irrigate. The ring of dips is a great idea though!

Steg, this was with Raging Hordes...the roads idea is another good one ill incorporate next game! And is that true about the barbs always losing battles when its your only city?!
 
Ocean access is usually a key requirement for a decent OCC, particularly if you know you are on a small to medium sized island in a game with a lot of water. If you are on a large island/continent and know you have at least one neighbor, finding a high-trade site near them and setting up road/rail links with a large city can do away with the need for ocean access. I've done a few like that which came out fairly well. Once you get decent relations going you can trade maps often and look for the opportunity to bribe someone else's ship away.

Using Ocean tiles for an OCC can be done, but some key techs become critical. At the start you only get one food from an Ocean tile, but once you discover Seafaring and build a Harbor that goes up to two, which is enough to support one worker. Seafaring also brings Explorers, which are great hut-finders on large continents, and lowers the risk of Triremes being lost at sea. It is also on the tech path to Astronomy, which brings Copernicus and a big boost in research. Ocean tiles start with two trade each, and Republic and Colossus can double that to four without any Settler work building roads. The problem with Ocean tiles is lack of shields, so the other key tech I would mention for an OCC with a lot of Ocean is Engineering for King Richards. KRC gives you an extra shield on any tile being worked, even those that do not have one to begin with like Ocean. A city of size 12 working primarily Ocean can have a production of 12-15 and a huge amount of trade well before AD1, if you organize your research and avoid off-path techs. This works best if you have a couple offshore Whales or Fish to help things along.

There was a debate a while ago about Wheat versus Silk for an OCC; I personally prefer Silk for the extra trade, assuming I've got some Grass around to make up the food. Note that roading the Wheat before you mine it to Silk saves time and gets you an extra arrow, and RRing it later gets you an extra shield. To me there is no question that Buffalo is better than Pheasant, despite the drop in food - the extra shield and trade more than makes up for it, plus Plains can be double-irrigated to Farmland later. If I have spare time for my Engineers in the mid game I might consider changing the Coal to Wine, but it takes quite a while so I'd probably just stop at Buffalo. If you are not familiar with what you can transform terrain into, do some searching on Transform Terrain. I posted a chart a few years ago, but I don't remember the thread name.

As far as patterns go, the Randomize Resource setting just moves them around, but they keep their basic shape. To see what that is, start the Civ2Map program that is located in the same folder as Civ2.exe. Select a Normal map and look at the patterns of Whales and Fish (zoom out a little to get a better view, but not so much that the specials disappear). Now select Plains and draw a large continent over a few of the patterns. Each time you cover a Whale with Plains it becomes Wheat; each time you cover Fish it becomes Buffalo. The other thing to experiment with is the Resource Seed. Hit S and increment the number (usually defaults to 1 unless you Load a SAV or MP file). Every 16 the basic pattern will change; in between the pattern stays the same but shifts diagonally across the map. If you draw some Grass you will notice that it hides the specials, so when you play look for patterns that might indicate a hidden special under a Grass tile.

Diplomats&Spies and Caravans&Freights are very useful in OCC games because they do not take a shield to support them when you build them yourself. Popping huts too close to your city causes the units to be supported; popping huts closer to AI cities gets you unsupported units, and bribing Barb and AI units further away also gets unsupported units. Support is a bigger issue for an OCC game than a regular one. Sometimes early in the game (before Trade is discovered) the only thing I have to produce are Diplomats, so I may accumulate 4-6 of them.

Yes, it is true that Barbs cannot defeat even the weakest unit in a single city. There is some sort of multiplier in effect that makes your defense strength invincible. There seems to be a decreasing factor when you have 2-4 cities, and above that it is normal. Note that the AI can still take your city, so don't go defenseless. I've had a single camel defeat attacks by multiple Barb Archers and Legions. The problem though is that I cannot get the Barb Leader without a four-legged unit or a peninsula to trap him on. Note also that before you build your first city there is a much greater chance of getting a "mercenary unit" from a hut - something like 60%, and it will be unsupported too. Move around a bit to see if you can spot the patterns of specials and pop a hut or two before you settle. About the only thing I rue from that is when I get Warrior Code!
 
Great advice again!

I always go for KRC, as the extra shields is great for producing faster caravans, and i toyed with the idea of bribing a naval unit to get overseas trade in non-ocean located OCC. But the critical road/rail link is still something ive yet to employ. Is it REALLY worth all the time it takes to build a link all the way across asia?

As for special terrain changes, yeah, im pretty up with what turns into what, although i still think im underestimating the trade useage. I always turn wine/silk into something making more food/resources. I realise now that, in OCCs, it's a mistake.

The NON units, yeah, ive noticed that too. If i get a band of mercenaries that are NON from a hut, ill normally disband the unit that found it, if its a long way from home, to save on the resource.

Seafaring is on the path to Astronomy? Now that, i never knew. Ill bear that in mind for future games.

Question. If youre OCCing on world map large, where do you recommend is the best starting point? China has great land, but is too far for a road/rail link. America is great for sea trading, but has no normal trade.
 
Just some minor edits to ElephantU's excellent advice:
ElephantU said:
Seafaring . . . is also on the tech path to Astronomy, which brings Copernicus and a big boost in research.
I think what was intended was that Seafaring - along with Astronomy - is on the path to Navigation, another very popular tech, with a very useful wonder (although perhaps too expensive, all things considered, for an OCC?). Seafaring is not on the path to Astronomy.

ElephantU said:
If I have spare time for my Engineers in the mid game I might consider changing the Coal to Wine, but it takes quite a while so I'd probably just stop at Buffalo.
ElephantU has some very special engineers. ;) Ordinarily, it is impossible to transform Coal (the fish-hill special) into Wine (the whale-hill special).
 
Sigh - the limitations of writing commentary during a lunch break at work! No tech tree or terrain chart in easy reach! Thanks, Stegyre. Eliminate the reference to Astronomy, and change the Wine reference to "change the Coal to Buffalo".

So much for the elephant's reputed memory...
 
HMonster - the Road/Rail trade bonus is the biggest multiplier you can get to ongoing trade routes, but it has a limited range of around 20 tiles (Steg?). The idea is to find a good spot in the neighborhood of a decent AI civ (Mongols don't work too well...) and form a long-lasting alliance. So I'd say a road across Asia, while it might speed caravan deliveries, is not going to get you the bonus you want and will drain a lot of Settler time better spent on improving the city terrain (or the destination AI city, if you've got a decent alliance).

I have not tried OCC on the world map in a while. Usually I do a random start and analyze the terrain patterns. Even with the predefined world maps, randomizing the resource seed is going to shift the patterns of terrain specials so picking one area might not pan out. Given all that, though, my favorite areas have lots of grass, rivers, and trade specials, so that would favor Europe and SouthEast Asia on the large world map and add middle America, South Africa, India and Argentina on the normal world map.
 
Well, i just done my first King OCC (Im building up slowly!). AC in 1847.

I found a few nomads early on, so decided to build the road link from China to India, then on to mainland Europe. I didnt see any noticeable trade increase, but it did speed my deliveries. Should i be gifting EVERY tech i get as soon as i get it? I obviously avoid things like horseback riding and feudalism if i can help it. BTW, i love when an ally wants, say, 100g to continue the alliance, which i give, then i ask for a gift, and get 200g back! Gotta love AI!

Towards the end i started terraforming just at the right time, so when it was time to build the spaceship, i had 121 shields per turn, which made that part a breeze!
 
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