OCC Science - What am I doing wrong?

[Tinker]

I recently tried going up from Emperor to Immortal, trying a OCC Science Victory as described in the strategy thread, using the Incas. I managed to do fairly well, finishing the Apollo Program on time and was able to grab the Hubble Telescope, but soon after Germany and Russia went into a really fast end-game science sprint and bested me to the victory. Thing is, I'm not quite sure what I was doing wrong here - there was never any real military threat, and beakers per turn seemed good to me. Any ideas?

 

[kimadactyl]

I'm no expert but I'd think one academy is nowhere near enough.

 

[joncnunn]

Yes; the screen shot shows you are running cultural specialists and not working all the food, production, and gold tiles.
For all forms off science victory, growth is much more important than culture. And generating a Great Artist would be harmful as it would increase threshold.

In addition, it doesn't look like you generated enough Great Scientists.
I'm only seeing two Academies; one of which was mis-placed (at fourth ring where it does no good). If you don't have Public School yet, all GS should create Academies.

In addition, those grassland river tiles would have been better converted to trade posts sometime after Guilds before hiting the policy that gives beakers from trade posts.

Also, why are you generating zero faith??? Starting in the Industrial era you can get a few faith based Scientists and then open Order to get a faith based Engineer. In addition, this map looks suitable for the Goddess of Festival pantheon which can be spring-boarded into founding a religion for food (Feed the World) and/or hammers (Religious Community). Or instead, can be doubled down with Monasteries.

This also points to possible problem with cultural polices, you should have aesthetics for free city state friendship with every city state on the map in addition to all of Tradition & Rationalism.

Problem with that map for OCC science:
Yes, you want Mountain on a river, but in addition, you want coastal so you can build some naval exploration vessels to make contact with city states.

 

[atarihuana]

i think you dont want to be popping, GE, GA etc, you only want GS to plant them ( after labs equipped+8turns = pop techs). that means only run scientist, nothing else. with just one city you also cant cascade your GS production, so you want to build garden and national epic to speed it up

plant your first academy on the cow to keep growing while getting the beakers. plant midgame academys on 2 foodtiles ( i think?)
,endgame academys on worthless tiles) an OCC expert might want to elaborate/correct me here.

and dont build academys out of three tile range. you MUST work them. always.

 

[Maxym]

How many RAs have you signed? You need to buy your science buildings if you have cash, but RAs are a priority, make sure you have PT. Well AP on time would be in the early 200s, seems you were quite late if you are still building boosters.

Burn GS for plastics so you can get that lab asap if you have cash for lab, then once you have it staffed for 8 turns bulb to AP, then if you still have Oxford use it for Satellites, if not research it normally while building AP, you might consider timing some overflow for that.

Try for some decent faith generating pantheon and use it to get more GS, save them till the very end to maximize but burn whenever new tech needed after plastics+8.

Try to get a double GS and GE pop at some point as you will need one for Hubble. And yes if you are signing RAs plant more of your pre plastic GSs.

 

[The Pilgrim]

Am I seeing an academy and a manufactory outside city radius?
And a whole bunch of improved tiles in 4th and 5th rings. Are you automating your workers? Don't build lumber mills as the Incas. Chop and farm everything you can. Terrace farms will give enough production, growth and science is more important.

I can't open the save right now, but another thing that strikes me is the lack of religion. You don't need you own religion, but you do need someone's religion to faith purchase scientists. Your science per turn should be higher. It's tough to accomplish with OCC, however, since you can have more policies than with multiple cities, try to pick Scholasticism and ally as many CS as you can. Honor opener and Planned Economy asap. You could have tried to time GA and GE to pop before you start working on parts (after popping your last scientist, which happened a while ago). Golden Age and manufactory don't hurt. t321 for immortal is definitely a high risk zone especially with expansionists like Cathy and Bismark.

 

[Tinker]

Yeah, the academy out of range was a major mistake. Didn't quite realize how that worked soon enough! I didn't actually pop any non-GS Great People except a single Engineer throughout the game. I was following Sadato's OCC Science guide, which mentioned not getting religion, but yeah, in retrospect that might have been a good idea for those few extra GSs in late game.

EDIT: Also, should've mentioned: The screenshot is taken right before I lose to Germany getting Science victory, so changing from that point won't do me much good Is there any way to force the AI to send you a religion? The pressure was simply never high enough, and they never sent me missionaries until very late game.

 

[atarihuana]

you dont need a religion, but accumulated faith helps shave off a few turns(faith purchase GS). basically you build a shrine/temple when theres nothing else to do ( growth/science > garden/NE> culture > prod/faith)

 

[marekb]

For OCC (in particular at higher levels) two things are extremely important: growth (as other mentioned - on Emperor you should be able to get HG and this helps, on Immortal+ I think this can be very risky) and RAs. If you don't have enough RAs (3-4 at least all time) you will not finish early and on Immortal+ probably you loose. Even if you get 700-750 bpt it is not enough to win without RAs.

The coastal location can help in defence, but (if you are not playing water map) is a waste of good tiles. I prefer inland location for OCC, with Incas in particular.

I played several emperor OCC and I with not many RAs late (1-2 every time) I manage to win quite late (some of runaways were building space ship but they not fas enough). On Immortal I played twice, once losing to Incas (runaway) around t300 and in second game I had a lot of RAs and won sub300. I think you need some luck to win higher difficulties OCC. If a runaway is your neighbour, is plotting against you and eats your RA partners it is very difficult to finish space ship in time.

Religion may help, but you can win without it. If you don't have faith generating beliefs/wonders, I think the best you can buy is one GS (may be two). You can sell open borders to AI to invite missionaries, but there is no guarantee to get a religion. One game two different civs were sending missionaries to my capital and I never get majority of one of them.

 

[The Pilgrim]

Sadato's OCC Science guide[/url], which mentioned not getting religion, but yeah, in retrospect that might have been a good idea for those few extra GSs in late game.

Getting a religion on immortal is much safer than on deity. You did grab a pantheon, so you either hit a faith ruin or met multiple CS, both gave you a good head start. But even if you don't want you own religion and happened to get a pantheon, take Fertility Rites. Never take Religious Settlements. It's one of the weakest beliefs.

Is there any way to force the AI to send you a religion? The pressure was simply never high enough, and they never sent me missionaries until very late game.

Not really, but you can capture AI's missionaries/prophets and do the job for them. 2-GS or a GS+GE at least is nothing to sneeze at.

One more thing I noticed watching the replay, is that you only had 7 RA's. Try to double this number in the future. Better triple.

you dont need a religion, but accumulated faith helps shave off a few turns(faith purchase GS). basically you build a shrine/temple when theres nothing else to do ( growth/science > garden/NE> culture > prod/faith)

You can't faith purchase if your city has no religion. You don't have to be a founder.

 

[Sadato]

Main problems here:
- You planted specialists out of your city radius (3 tiles), i see 2 factories outside, they already told you that.
- It seems like you didn't filled your scientist slots, you have to do it always, once you have your university and aswell with the school and the lab.
- Try to not generate GPs other than GS. In the late game you can try to pop a GE or GA timing it with a GS (so you don't increase its cost by 100) if you want a wonder (Hubble) or a golden age for building the SS parts.
- You can skip religion but it is quite useful. It is hard to get on deity if you are not playing Celts, Maya or Ethiopia (and even then you need a faith generation pantheon), but you can try to get Hagia Sophia if you beeline to Theology with a good science rate (you built National College soon and your population is high). Without religion (without Grand Temple) it is hard to get 1000 faith, but if get an AI religion with faith pantheon or belief, a shrine and a temple and any faith wonder you can get them. With 1000 faith you can buy a GE to rush Hubble if you picked Order or a GS with rationalism. The next one costs 1500.
- As they already told you, plant all GS until you have your lab working for 8 turns, and even in that case if you have many RAs and you're far away from getting the late techs you can plant 1 or 2 more as they help in RA output.

 

[sufficiency]

Why are you working Artist specialists?

 

[Tinker]

Thanks guys, I tried again today and managed to win on turn 343, which is probably still slow, but hey, I won Alex actually stole quite a bit of land with his Great Generals, but he wasn't quite fast enough when all my RAs kicked in near the end.

 

[The Pilgrim]

Congrats!
343 is very deep into danger zone, though. If you want to be able to win consistently, you should aim for 300-310.

 

[Tinker]

Yeah, I'll probably keep playing on Immortal for a good time, until I can actually win consistently.

 

[marekb]

Yeah, I'll probably keep playing on Immortal for a good time, until I can actually win consistently.

I don't think you can win OCC consistently on Immortal. First you need a good starting location. Second you need a descent number of good RAs and this is not always possible.

 

[The Pilgrim]

I don't think you can win OCC consistently on Immortal. First you need a good starting location. Second you need a descent number of good RAs and this is not always possible.

It's ok to move to good location for several turns. And even with not so many RA partners your chances are decent (theoretically you can sign 7 waves for t310 finish between 90-270, with only 2 RA's per wave it's still 14 RA's and it's enough). I'd say you can win pretty consistently, not 100% but close to that. And probably 80% of games are winnable sub t300. On deity it's harder, civs are getting swallowed up faster and obviously you have less time. On the positive, AI has more cash and RAs' output is higher.