Old GOTM Scoring Discussions

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Sorry, can't help you, we don't see any form of list before the results are posted.

It even seems that a number of games that were submitted were never received by Matrix and not reviewed but I guess all those people will just think they cheated.

:(
 
:hmm: So that's why I got my highest ranking so far in this competition...

I guess there were some pretty good players that didn't have their game reviewed. I was already missing names like cracker and Aeson on the results list.

Any chance their games can somehow be put results later (maybe not counting for medals), if they resubmit their games (if they still have them)?
I think it's best for all of us if the results lists and thus the savegames in the archives are as complete as possible, so people can look at and learn from games played by others.
 
That's harsh. Is the submission form working now?

Also, any input on why the early conquests and domination victories totally destroyed my formula? I didn't play the game so I can only guess by screenshots (which don't show a whole lot).
 
Originally posted by Aeson
That's harsh. Is the submission form working now?

Also, any input on why the early conquests and domination victories totally destroyed my formula? I didn't play the game so I can only guess by screenshots (which don't show a whole lot).

I don't know, I guess I'll see if my GOTM12 shows up. Since it was a small map, a 370AD domination does not score much and has no effect since it was probably my lowest ranked game for a while.

The map had three agressive and strong civs together on a fairly small continent. This pretty well nullified their participation in the game. In my game I think I only built 1 city on that continent and that was to trigger the domination, never really even had to fight them. So it was almost like a 2 Civ opponent game.
 
What do we need to do to get a better definition of what happened to the lost game submissions for GOTM11. It looks to me like 30 or more games may be missing.

I submitted a game prior early in September that seems to have been lost and would have shown up in the results with a fairly fast finish. I posted spoiler info and scoring comparisons in the spoiler thread early in the month.
 
Originally posted by cracker
What do we need to do to get a better definition of what happened to the lost game submissions for GOTM11. It looks to me like 30 or more games may be missing.

I submitted a game prior early in September that seems to have been lost and would have shown up in the results with a fairly fast finish. I posted spoiler info and scoring comparisons in the spoiler thread early in the month.

Matrix posted a notice on the main page of the site on instructions on what to do if your interested.
 
Good to see that everyone who's game was lost can still submit. :goodjob:
So much for my high ranking though... :cry:

I'll bounce back though, as I think I have a pretty decent chance of getting a good result on gotm12.
 
Thanks for the compliment, Aeson. :)

Don't get a wrong impression, I'm perfectly happy with the ranking I get each month for a game, and I know I won't get a high position on the results list because I'm more of a fast spaceship player. I rank these two games among the most succesfull civ games I've played so far and it's nice to see them end up high on the results generated by your formula.

Btw, too bad you didn't go for fastest spaceship award this time. Since you've beaten me pretty overwhelmingly in gotm 10, I would have liked to see whether I could have beaten you on the launch date this time around, since I've set a personal best for the spacehip launch date in gotm12. :)

Now that you're not competing for spaceship and SirPleb and Lawrence both seem to have retired, my hopes are pretty high this time. But maybe someone else will go away with the fastest spaceship award this time since the level of competition is very high in the GotM. If so they - IMO- definitely earned it.
 
Originally posted by Cartouche Bee
I don't know, I guess I'll see if my GOTM12 shows up. Since it was a small map, a 370AD domination does not score much and has no effect since it was probably my lowest ranked game for a while.

Domination in 370AD is very, very good point. And by Aeson's formula you could be the first.
In 10AD I had 57% of the map. I don't know when I could got the Domination.
 
Just thought I'd update on how all the modifiers are looking right now. They are all in turn form now. I've added a set of civ trait modifiers as well, which none of the results above have used so far. There have also been a few slight changes to various modifiers outside the basic date to turn conversion.

Code:
base modifiers

conquest	150
cultural 100k	290
cultural 20k	330
diplomatic	250
domination	170
spacerace	290

difficulty modifiers

	        chi	war	reg	mon	emp	dei
conquest	-15	-10	 -5	  0	 20	 50
cultural 100k	 -7	 -5	 -2	  0	  5	 15
cultural 20k	-10	 -5	  0	  0	 35	 80
diplomatic	 -5	  0	  5	  0	-10	-25
domination	 -7	 -5	 -2	  0	 10	 25
spacerace	 -5	  0	  5	  0	-10	-25

map size modifiers

	        tin	sma	sta	lar	hug
conquest	-20	-10	  0	 20	 40
cultural 100k	 50	 25	  0	-25	-50
cultural 20k	  0	  0	  0	  0	  0
diplomatic	-30	-15	  0	-15	-30
domination	-15	-10	  0	 10	 20
spacerace	-30	-15	  0	-15	-30

landform modifiers

	        a80	a70	a60	c80	c70	c60	p80	p70	p60
conquest	 25	 15	  7	 10	  5	  0	 -5	-10	-20
cultural 100k	 20	 15	 10	  5	  0	 -5	-10	-15	-20
cultural 20k	  0	  0	  0	  0	  0	  0	  0	  0	  0
diplomatic	  6	  3	  0	 -3	 -6	-12	-15	-18	-21
domination	 15	 10	  5	  5	  0	 -5	 -7	-10	-15
spacerace	  6	  3	  0	 -3	 -6	-12	-15	-18	-21

trait modifiers	
	        exp	com	mil	sci	rel	ind
conquest	  0	 -5	-15	 -5	-10	-10
cultural 100k	  0	 -5	 -5	-20	-20	-10
cultural 20k	  0	  0	 -5	  0	-10	  0
diplomatic	  0	-10	 -5	-15	-10	-10
domination	  0	-10	-15	-10	-15	-15
spacerace	  0	-10	 -5	-15	-10	-10

Here are the results of GOTM10-13 based on these modifiers. Also they are now using numbers which more accurately represent the total amount of food on the map, and the date score calculation is done in turns instead of years. The new method of calculating the date score really makes a big change in the results. Now 'partially milked' games are on much more even footing with 'fully milked' and 'fast finish' games.
 
Aeson: If Kemal decides to fully milk his game, where do you think he will be on your list? Would he still be #1 by the year 2050AD?
 
Originally posted by Moonsinger
Aeson: If Kemal decides to fully milk his game, ...

That 'll never happen.. ;)

I guess it now comes down to fast finishing AND milking, since my score for gotm 12 is lower than my score for gotm 13, even though I personally think my effort for gotm 12 was better than the one for gotm 13 in terms of the result achieved. However, as I also stated in my spoilers for gotm 13, aside from trying to launch as fast as possible, I also micromanaged for score in that game ( and didn't like it a bit ;) ).


Great work with the score systems Aeson.

However, I'm not very happy with how some victory types are favoured with certain types of maps/civ traits, since that will encourage (even more than before) many finishes of the same type (like in the Tournament) instead of a mixed display of skills for a given map.
If I understand this correctly, with this score system, on higher difficulty, even though I have the game in the bag before AD it would be unwise to pursue an early spaceship launch since it would have a negative effect on my score. So instead I should go on and try to go for domination\conquest, something which I dislike to do.

Also, could you please explain why:

1. Pangea map setting disfavours Spaceship victories more than conquest victories
2. Why the cultural 100k modifier for deity is so much lower than the conquest and domination modifier? IMO, the 100k culture victory condition on deity is much more difficult than a domination or conquest victory.
3. Maybe I misunderstand, but won't the heavy modifier for the conquest victory over the domination victory lead to situations where people will try to come as close to the domination limit as possible, after which they will continue by razing the leftover AI cities to reach a conquest victory to make the modifier applicable to their score, even though they actually went the domination way in their game?

Kemal
 
Almost definitely not. Achieving a very fast space race victory requires a different approach than the 'conquer out to the domination limit as fast as possible' that milking (and of course early dominations) require. Normally it is best to grab only as much land as you can make productive... about 2x the number of optimal cities for the map. That allows the AI's to be strong themselves, and help a bit in the tech race. From an in-game scoring perspective, this isn't anywhere near the optimal approach.

An early domination or conquest milked out would hopefully score roughly the same either way. If you have the date and base score for when you reach the domination limit in any of your milked games, just plug those in to see how your 'domination' score would compare to your 'milked' one. There currently is still a discrepancy that favors early victories (especially the 'late' early victories), but the results should be within 1000 points in most cases.

The basic premise of this formula is to recognize that there are vastly different styles of gameplay required for each victory condition, and allow for skill in each style to be awarded on a more equal basis.
 
However, I'm not very happy with how some victory types are favoured with certain types of maps/civ traits, since that will encourage (even more than before) many finishes of the same type (like in the Tournament) instead of a mixed display of skills for a given map.

Currently this is mostly because the map generator doesn't do a very good job at giving consistant results on the same settings. I've had to base the modifiers off of the settings which don't always turn out the way they are expected to. I am working on a utility that will analyze the map directly and base the modifiers off what the map 'really' is, instead of what we would expect it to be based off of the settings.

1. Pangea map setting disfavours Spaceship victories more than conquest victories

The reason why GOTM 11 was such a conquest/domination fest is that it was 80% water. There are two vastly different 80% water Pangaea outcomes with regard to conquest/domination. One is a very small landmass (or group of landmasses connected by galley crossings) with everyone on it, which will very much favor early conquests and dominations. The other is two or more small landmasses with ocean crossings, which will keep conquests and dominations restricted to post-navigation/magnetism, basically making them irrelevant.

Until I get the utility working to analyze such discrepancies, map generator quirks like this are going to throw things off quite a bit.

2. Why the cultural 100k modifier for deity is so much lower than the conquest and domination modifier? IMO, the 100k culture victory condition on deity is much more difficult than a domination or conquest victory.

It's actually not more difficult (at least in most cases). Normally you can get enough land for the cultural victory by fighting just 1 or 2 AI's early on, conquering ~30% of the overall landmass. The rest is building cultural improvements and trimming back any competitors at your leisure. The AI's don't pursue 'extraordinary' culture, so while initially the AI's on deity will be in the lead (or often are), they tend to stagnate later on. Even if you run into a real culturally advanced AI, they never will resort to ICS like the player can. So even in roughly the same area the player will be able to generate 2x or more culture.

3. Maybe I misunderstand, but won't the heavy modifier for the conquest victory over the domination victory lead to situations where people will try to come as close to the domination limit as possible, after which they will continue by razing the leftover AI cities to reach a conquest victory to make the modifier applicable to their score, even though they actually went the domination way in their game?

I tried to account for the difficulty differences that show up between conquest and domination. On higher difficulty levels, the balance is opposite what it is on lower difficulty. Domination takes longer on the lower levels because you have to basically build all the cities to claim the land yourself, after conquering the AI's in the way. It's more difficult than just conquering the few scattered (and poorly defended) AI cities. At higher difficulties, all the land is going to be claimed early on, and so the difference between domination and conquest is going to be conquering 67% of the world, or all of it. In that case, conquest will take longer.

The map plays it's role here as well. Sometimes there is enough available landmass to trigger domination well before there is access to all the AI's. If 67%+ of the land is accessable by land/galley, but one or more AI are on a landmass accessable only by navigation/magnetism, then conquest will take much longer than domination.

Basically... the utility should fix most of these problems once it is finished. Until then, the results are based off guesses as to the form of the landmass.
 
Looking at the modifiers I think I see what you were talking about now Kemal. The changes to tech rate modifiers (in game) by difficulty haven't been accounted for yet in the modifiers. It used to be the AI's got bonuses in tech rate, but now it's the player's tech rate that is modified.

It used to be on Deity that the AI's would drive the tech rate to ungodly levels, but that isn't the case anymore. I'll probably trim back the spacerace and diplomatic modifiers for emperor and deity a bit, but will wait until the GOTM14 results are available to decide just how much.
 
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