On Flying Units

[QES]

This Thread is meant to discuss the Problems and Potential Of adding flying units to an eventual version of FfH2.


Ok, so I've mentioned this in the past in a previous thread, but it strikes me that there are many fantastic units that we could want in FfH that would/should be considered airbourne. Kael expressed that there was a problem with this, in that until they can get the "flying" mechanic right, he doesnt want to bother with them at all. I understand this, so im not questioning that.

However, I think it would be good of the community to develop ideas that A) solve these problems, and B) give potential boons to the nature of flying units.

Below I have lists of Problems, Solutions, Benefits and a list of possible units that should have "flying" characteristics.


Problems:
- Flying in Civ IV is done through the base system. You're either air supirority a hellicopter, or a bomber. These traits do not well describe fantastic flying creatures.
- A distinct lack of Models and textures that look flying-like.
- Coding issues (Kael will have to be more specific here.)
- Sea connectivity. How would flying units interact with sea units, when many sea units are not considered Carriers (or subs).
- How to allow flying units to chose "not" to attack a tile and merely fly over it.
- AI Use

Solutions:
- Civ 2 Helicopter mechanic. A flying unit that functions as both a ground unit and a flying unit. In this, it would be a flying unit, but be attackable by ground forces if ever "out in the open." This would represnt the unit "landing" each turn.
- For the "not attacking" problem: Hidden units in theory should be under the same auspices. So I for one suggest a tie-in to mechanics. Another solution is that whenever a flying unit "attacks" it gets a menu option (like ones from targeting spells), one option of which would be "None".
- For AI: Get the computer to use flying units like any highly mobile ground unit.

Benefits of flight
- Promotions could differ as to the method of flight: Levatation, Winged, Ballistic etc. Each could have different functional mechanics. For missle-like units, the normal CIV 4 flight system might work. For Winged creatures i recomend the Civ 2 helicopter mechanic, for Levetation, the same.
Each type of flight offers A) much flavor and B) another strategy to use through the course of the game.
- Bypassing defenses becomes more possible, as does the need to prevent others from bypassing defenses.
- Offers potentially a unique form of specialization - Air superiority.
- Gives many units a unique feel, and offers a solution to "why can the really huge units go on tiny ships" problem.

Unit Possiblities
- All Dragons
- WIghts
- Ghosts
- Gargoyles
- HaRpies
- Winged Men
- Great Eagles
- Genies/Djinn
- Pegasus (Hero unit?)
- Demons
- Angels
- Flying Contraptions (mechanical in nature - dwarves maybe?)
- Air Elemental
- Roc
- Aberations of all sorts (Beholder anyone?)
- <Magic spells/items that would allow flight>
etc.

Post away comrades.

-Qes

(P.s. Kael please reiterate your concerns on flight in this post, so as the community might take a crack at it if they wish.)

 

[Lord Vermillion]

what about eagles like in The Hobbit, that can transport units, or drop rocks and whatnot? Maybe they would work like choppers, or like paratroopers?

 

[Jono]

Flying units should tire out after a while. Go down and walk around for a turn... Also, I don't see the air elementals coming into this.

 

[QES]

Flying units should tire out after a while. Go down and walk around for a turn... Also, I don't see the air elementals coming into this.

If something IS the air, as an elemental is intended to be, it ought to be able to move about it freely, thusly fly.

And i agree about tiring. So thats why the civ2 helicopter mechanic (if possible) shoudl work. Wherever the flying unit stops, is where it lands. It is attackable when on the ground. Specifically, under this use, they're 'merely' very mobile units.

Also, maybe they should ignore walls and city defenses? Naturally they should never recieve defensive bonuses. Maybe archery units get a bonus against flying units? Not sure how that could be implemented, but it sounds right.
-Qes

 

[QES]

what about eagles like in The Hobbit, that can transport units, or drop rocks and whatnot? Maybe they would work like choppers, or like paratroopers?

Yeah i have "great eagles" down. Thats what i was thinking too.
-Qes

 

[Sureshot]

for some disadvantages to flying units, maybe no taking over cities? (either only kills units or auto razes)
many would make sense not to give pillaging abilities (though dragons should be able to pillage)
maybe they can fly over ocean, but cannot end their turn there? (ending their turn in ocean would disband the unit)

 

[QES]

for some disadvantages to flying units, maybe no taking over cities? (either only kills units or auto razes)
many would make sense not to give pillaging abilities (though dragons should be able to pillage)
maybe they can fly over ocean, but cannot end their turn there? (ending their turn in ocean would disband the unit)

I like the ocean idea, but i think it'd be simpler to have it be like the drown, and only be coastal tiles. Ocean becomes too much of a concern if the AI trys using it to explore...and keeps losing units. Maybe flying units can pillage, but no gold is ever gained from it - destructive only.

I DO think that flying units should be able to take over cities, but maybe not hold them very well? Flying units are really a 3rd dimensional cavalry/seige combo. In fantasy, however, they can also function as regulars in battles of mythic preportions.

Wouldnt a Civ that specializes in flying units be grand? I imagine lots of winged men/women doing their thing.
-Qes

 

[Chandrasekhar]

I think I posted this elsewhere... but I had a thought about units that can switch between aerial units (like in vanilla, with the rebase/bombard sort of stuff), and ground units (like the way everything is now). Wouldn't it make sense in Acheron bombarded, pillaged, and just generally made life miserable for anyone coming near his city?

Heck, he could even rebase to other barb cities. He'd probably only do it if (a) there was no immeidate threat to his hoard, and (b) the city had plenty of defenses to prevent anyone from taking the city he's in. Though I guess we could make it so that if he's an aerial unit, then he just gets rebased if the city he's in is taken (like Loki). This mechanic would probably work even better for Eurabatres and Abashi. Humans could have a fun time with it.

As for Beholders, I don't see any reason why they wouldn't be able to act just as vanilla Civ IV choppers (in that they ignore terrain penalties). I actually had a thought just like this the other day.

 

[Civkid1991]

Is it possible to build on tiers (or levels) like supose you build a Hawk... it would be a normal land unit (nonpromotional, and able to attack land units). there would be button for the command "fly" that would bring the hawk to the second tier airspace. Here the hawk could transport units and drop rocks built in the town (if it has stones) on other towns and inpovements. And then you can "upgrade" it again to get it into tier 3 airspace which would allow the unit to do recon missions (of corse it couldnt attack other units here and will be souly for recon.) Im thinking that after a few turns (5 or 7?) it would get "tired" and drop to the previous lvl of airspace.
I also like QES's idea of "lots of winged men/women doing their thing" . Sounds cool. We could have the men and women walk around on the ground and if needed could be promoted into higher airspace.
{random thought}
O what about units simillar to the vampires in the blood clan for that Winged Civ you where talking about? Like a harpie (sp?: a winged femal creature that has like claws and is sort of a chiemera of a human and bird... i remember them from a book i read). anyway these units would play the same role as the vampires in the blood clan. These creatures have the power to sudue others, if im remebering correctly, so i guess they would get some mind powers ( ).
{End of random thought untill i can think of something to add }

 

[Civkid1991]

{Extention to random thoughts from previous post}
I found the Harpies on wikipedia.... ignore the ancent pic... I guess the art department could do a better unit for it if they deside to take the idea: Harpy

 

[Tortanick]

One thing I'd quite like to see is fireballs useing the hawk's machanic rather than moving like a normal unit.

 

[QES]

@Civkid
I like the idea of tiers, but maybe only three, Low Flying, Flying, and High Flying.
IF it is at all possible. For MOST units and creatures, i picture them landing every single turn. But it WOULD be cool to have units that constantly hover and never touch ground.

Cool Unit/Summon:
Flying Island - Summoner/Archmage Spell (what sphere?) Consumes Caster (who then lives on the island). Flying Island moves 1 square a turn (and only ever one square), retains all the spell casting abilites of its caster, and may only ever be attacked by flying units. Flying Island is a carrier for flying units.

It'd be a unique way of controling an area, since it'd be unable to be attacked except by air units. - Maybe prevent it from being able to enter cities (and thusly prevent it from being able to be formed IN a city).

-Qes