On Indo-European Languages

Originally posted by SpincruS
Indo-European languages:

- Celtic (p-Celtic, q-Celtic)
- Indo-Iranian (Persian, Indian languages, Armenian, Kurdish, and I guess Circassian is in this, too)
- Germanic (German, Dutch, Scandinavian, English)
- Slavic (Russian, Ukranian, Balkan languages, etc.)
- Italic (aka. Romantic. Italian, Spanish, French, Romanian, to some extend Maltese)
- Greek

Arabic and Hebrew are semitic languages (Hami-Sami). No way NEAR Indo-European. However, Maltese is half Semitic half Indo-European.

Agian, another mis-conception, Armenia isn't part of the indo-Iranian branch of the indo-european family. It is a seperate branch that includes only it.

what are the orgins of indo-european languages. How has it spread to incompass a wide range of languages.
 
Originally posted by RagingBarbarian

what are the orgins of indo-european languages. How has it spread to incompass a wide range of languages.

All Indo-European languages from that list are daughter languages of a single older language, Proto-Indo-European, abbreviated PIE.

PIE was spoken by a single tribe of humans living either around the Caspian Sea or in eastern Anatolia; this is being debated. What isn't being debated is that a few thousand years ago members of this tribe began to split off from the main group and invade different parts of the world. As each left the Indo-European homeland, their languages changed in independent ways; the Germanic peoples started speaking their own dialect of PIE, the Italics their own, the Tocharians their own, etc. Eventually, these split further and further as the tribes sub-divided, moved, and encountered other language families, but, ultimately, all of their languages have a common ancestor, which we have actually reconstructed from its existing daughter languages.
 
my bet would be the dannans- while I dont know much about them, i think the presence of the same name for a very old people appering inthe epics of several culture- incluing the brtianic celts, and and Greeks epics says somthing about a people who were very wide spread- such as the indo-europeans
 
I've no real understanding of the whole indo european thing. I get the jest of it, but I've yet to understand the details and structure behind the theory.

From my ignorant standpoint, it just seems very sweeping or generalised, but like i said, I'm ignorant on the subject.

Is there anyone here who has a solid understanding of it who can break it down for me?
How are all these people linked? language? archaeology?.
If so how were they but together to form a theroy as grand as this?

I thank you for your patience.:)
 
linguistic sound and structure similarities too similer, on to common a basis to be coincidence
 
Originally posted by gael
I've no real understanding of the whole indo european thing. I get the jest of it, but I've yet to understand the details and structure behind the theory.

From my ignorant standpoint, it just seems very sweeping or generalised, but like i said, I'm ignorant on the subject.

Is there anyone here who has a solid understanding of it who can break it down for me?
How are all these people linked? language? archaeology?.
If so how were they but together to form a theroy as grand as this?

I thank you for your patience.:)

If you look at the Indo-European languages and check for systematic correspondences in grammar, lexicon, etc., you can clearly see that they are not only related, but related in such a way that suggests a common ancestor. This can be seen most easily in closely related languages, such as the Romance languages (who are all descended from Vulgar Latin), the Germanic languages (all descended from proto-Germanic), the Indo-Aryan languages (descended from Proto-Indo-Aryan or Sanskrit), etc. In many cases, we either have a working knowledge of the ancestor language (Latin, Sanskrit, etc.) or can re-construct it from the existing languages (as we've done with most of them). These ancient or reconstructed languages, when they themselves are compared, are also related in such a way that would indicate a common ancestor, and in this way we have traced it all the way to Proto-Indo-European.

Noting similar correspondences in culture and early religion, as well as the fact that a common language requires a common speaker group, we can very easily say that all Indo-European peoples can trace themselves back to a single ancient tribe living anywhere from 8,000 to 10,000 years ago. Indeed, we've even been able to detail some of the exact migration routes of the early splinter tribes, and we almost certainly know in what order they split off from the Proto-Indo-European group.
 
A critical aspect about the development of the Indo-European languages is we're not sure how they did so. Some are obvious, like English, because they did so in more or less historical times but others we're less sure of. The old belief was that our powerful and victorious ancestors conquered all the lands their languages are now spoken in, but we've come to realize that it may have been a far more complex process than that, and that our ancestors may have been simple farmers...
 
What is this based on, Vrylakas? From what I've heard, languages of sedentary people tend to develop a bit differently from the clear way Indo-European langauges have developed; you get more of a "web" or "mix" of languages than a straight-line genetic relationship.
 
Originally posted by Vrylakas
A critical aspect about the development of the Indo-European languages is we're not sure how they did so. Some are obvious, like English, because they did so in more or less historical times but others we're less sure of. The old belief was that our powerful and victorious ancestors conquered all the lands their languages are now spoken in, but we've come to realize that it may have been a far more complex process than that, and that our ancestors may have been simple farmers...

Who were the people they conquered, and how much did that effect the structure of language?
If they didn't conquer but mearly lived or mixed with those already there, how do they know that its indo european languages that are being spoken and not that of the original inhabitants, or a mix of both?

How did they trace it back to the caucasus mountains just based on language?
That seems like an almost impossible task.
 
@RagingBarbarian: True, I just looked it up and I figured out you're right. Thanks for pointing it out. It's supposed to be a separate language group with 38 letters in its alphabet.
 
Originally posted by SpincruS
@RagingBarbarian: True, I just looked it up and I figured out you're right. Thanks for pointing it out. It's supposed to be a separate language group with 38 letters in its alphabet.

Whats more interesting about the alphabet is after the communist chinese revolution, Moa Tsa Tung wanted to use the Armenian alphabet as there primary alphabet. He wanted to stop using the complicated chinese system, because he felt it made business very difficult. If his plan was carried out,the tradtional chinese alphabet would become a symbol of chinese past, and the Armeinian a would have become the official aphabet. In the end, his very tradtional wife talked him out of it. I thought this was very interesting so, I researched into my home aphabet, of which I knew very little about.

At first you might think, how can the complex chinese language be translated into a Indo-European alphabet, with only 38 letters. It turns out that the Armenian alphabet was developed very sceintificlly during the classical period to porpusefully include all the sounds capable by human speech. It turns out that any language can use the alphabet and still effectively use their own language. Pretty crazy stuff huh!
 
Being Chinese, I don't think it'd work. The beauty of the Chinese language is that a lot of times, you have a lot of characters different in meaning but pronounced in absolutely the same way. It can be differentiate in daily speech in the context they're used. In written form, we use different characters.

Using the method you mentioned, it'll be pretty confusing, with a lot of same-sounding Chinese characters being spelt the same way in the alphabet.
 
I agree with XIII. Even though I'm not Chinese, my long-time roommate is Chinese, and from what I've understood by talking to him on this matter, the "simplified Chinese" is the closest you can get to a simplified way of writing in Chinese.

"Writing in proper phonetics" is a completely different issue, and we actually should talk about this in a separate thread. It not only involves pronounciation issues in writing, but also the notion of a "standard language".

(The only example I know is the word "mother" I guess, which, with improper pronounciation, might mean "horse". Oh, XIII; what is the dialect spoken in Singapore? How similar is it to Taiwanese?)
 
In Singapore, we speak Mandarin, as the standard. Only the elderly speak exclusively in dialects. Dialect-speaking is synonymous with non-progressive here. ;)

Taiwanese is actually Hokkien, which is also the largest dialect group in Singapore.
 
I'm not nessecarly in favor of the change I mentioned, I understand the difficulty of translating to a different alphabet. I just thought that was really interesting.
 
What is this based on, Vrylakas? From what I've heard, languages of sedentary people tend to develop a bit differently from the clear way Indo-European langauges have developed; you get more of a "web" or "mix" of languages than a straight-line genetic relationship.

This isn't a new idea; Colin Renfrew proposed it in the late 1980s as a reaction to the highly romanticised picture of burning-and-slashing barbarian ancestors who, as true Aryans, swept across Eurasia leaving fragmented forms of their language wherever they went. His chief point was that the Kossinian connection between language, ethnicity and the archaeological record just doesn't add up. Almost assuredly there have been instances of Indo-European speakers conquering others, but to explain how a language family became so widespread, how it came to be represented across such a massive landarea and across such diverse topography, one needs much more. The spread and development of language is more complex than simply wild barbarians riding out of the hills and slaughtering all.

One aspect that has been ignored until very recently is the roll of indigeonous peoples - the folks who were already here when the historical peoples we know about showed up. We also know next to nothing about trading relationships and how far widespread they were in the pre-Classical and even immediate post-Classical era, for instance. One of Renfrew's more radical (though plausible) thoughts is whether or not the Celts were truly ever a single people. Have modern archaeologists and paleo-linguists manufactured a single ethnicity out of what may be many scattered and unrelated groups who were bound together by trade, and came (mistakenly) to be by moderns described as a people because of the wildfire spread of iron age technologies?

Bottom line: In the late 19th and early 20th centuries we thought we had the Indo-Europeans pretty much all worked out. There were even some linguists who were claiming to be able to reconstruct the original Indo-European language through etymological studies. Sure, there were a few loose strings, but the big picture was all worked out.

With advances in ethnography and archaeology in the 20th century, however, we've come to see increasingly that we know much less than we thought and many of the earlier assumptions were skewered, wrong or just politically-motivated.

Speaking of Celts:

Who were the people they conquered, and how much did that effect the structure of language?

That's a question that only recently linguists have started asking. To date most scholars looked at the pre-Indo-European peoples as cultureless, empty vessels just waiting to be either slaughtered or assimilated by our linguistic ancestors. The problem of course is that we are increasingly understanding that they didn't just go away, and the question naturally follows that if they didn't just go away, then what kind of cultural or linguistic imprint did they leave? The short answer: We just don't know yet. Stay tuned.

If they didn't conquer but mearly lived or mixed with those already there, how do they know that its indo european languages that are being spoken and not that of the original inhabitants, or a mix of both?

The easiest initial method is to find if any given word in one language has identifiable matche sin other Indo-European languages. For instance, the word "father" is fairly evenly spread through most of the Indo-European languages ("pater", "Vater", etc.) though few words are universal: "father" in the Slavic languages is a variation of "ojciec". The problem is that no language develops in a vaccuum; from beginning to end they are all influenced by other languages, and of course languages evolve. If you want to study Latin, you need to specify what era of Latin you want to study, because even after its formal death variations of it developed across Europe. Medieval European Latin is not the same that Caesar spoke. Modern Bulgarian is labelled a Slavic language and as such a member of the Indo-European family but it was originally a Turkic language spoken by a people who eventually conquered and ruled over the Slavs of the lower Balkans, and gradually fused (unintentionally) Old Bulgar with Slavic to make modern Bulgarian. If you study Slavic philology, you very commonly hear the phrase, "This is common to all the Slavic languages...except Bulgarian..."

How did they trace it back to the caucasus mountains just based on language?

First of all, there is no single theory that is fully accepted by the linguistic community about where the Indo-Europeans first began speaking their language. In fact, some theories claim that there never was a single Indo-European language, but rather several different linguistic fountains that inadvertantly spread the language through trade and technologies. It was once popular to try to trace the "ethnoi-genesis" of a people through their language to some definite geographical location, but again, much of the ideas behind that have since been called into question.

For tracing though, as I recall the Hungarians (a non-Indfo-European speaking people, although a very substantial proportion of their vocabulary is derived from the Indo-European lexicon - i.e., Slavic, German, Latin) traced the footsteps of their linguistic ancestors by tracing back the names of trees, birch trees in particular. This is a popular method. Basically, you categorize the names of trees or plants in a given language, then try to find cognates in other surrounding languages, meanwhile trying to find the geographical location of some of these plants. It is fascinating work, though inexact.

That seems like an almost impossible task.

It is. We just have to accept that there is much we will never know. It is tempting for some, sometimes for nationalist or political reasons, to push the evidence farther than it really can take us, but in truth much will remain a mystery.

One trait that is thought to be an old Indo-European trait is the old adjectivial suffix form "-ski". By now most perople think of this as a Slavic, and particularly Polish trait, but it was once nearly universal. Many modern Polish surnames are actually adjectives, which is why they end in "-ski", "-ska" or "-sko"; but other Indo-European languages also preserve this form: the guy who built the dome over the Florentine cathedral was named "Brunolescchi", a pure Italian whose name was pronounced "brunoleski". I've seen many Italian names with this ending. It also shows up in French, though archaically so, and through French in English as well: Kafk-esque, grot-esque, etc.

If you ever want to study the Indo-European languages, you will find yourself studying Lithuanian. It is, so far as we're able to determine, the language that has preserved the most of the original traits of the Indo-European language family. It is amazing to see; it fills up the page as if Lithuanians were determined to use every possible diacritic mark available to the Latin alphabet.
 
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