On Wiping Out Religions

[SilentMage]

I know a lot of people here have talked about the issue of multiple religions existing in civilizations. However, I was thinking that it might also be possible to suppress the growth of a religion or possibly wipe an entire religion off the face of the planet.

I think that, from a religious point of view, it would be better for a theological civilzation's interests to carry out crusades to suppress the growth of other religions in nearby neighbors. Why let other religious ideas get your people confused and maybe revolt against you because you might be withholding knowledge or concepts from them? Maybe this would be possible if Missionary units have the ability to "incite revolts against Religion X" (which would probably cost a pretty penny to do), which would make the city destroy Religion X's temples and replace that religion with yours as the dominent religion there.

Another point I would like to bring up is something that was brought up recently: founding multiple religions. Do you think it an option is given to you on whether or not you want to found a religion? For example, you are a Hindu nation (discovered Polytheism) and you promptly discover Monotheism, which gives you Judaism. Do you think you would have the option to prevent Judaism from starting up by selecting something along the lines of "No, kill these hethens!"? Or do you think that by selecting something like that, that the next nation to discover Monotheism would be able to found Judaism?

What do the rest of you think? Do you think that the ability to wipe out other religions is a feature that should be included or that it shouldn't be possible?

 

[Dearmad]

I assumed there would be a way to wipe them out.

I intend to opress and persecute certain of the religions.

I certainly hope it's included.

I'd also like to make a new wonder of the world called the Religious Patriarch. Whoever founds it has their religion basically like in a papacy. i'll model my wonder on the UN but it'll be available much earlier. Anyway, civs with the same state religion will be members and you can call crusades and such- meaning you all declare war on other nations for their religions.

Whoever holds the papacy will be rotated somehow (maybe by vote) every 10 turns or so.

Looting and general mayhem will then ensue...

I'll have go obsolete with something like constitutional government discovery or somesuch.

 

[prscormier]

I plan on renaming 2 of the religions Scientology and Oprahism

 

[Melendwyr]

To really get points for a mad Futurama reference, name one "Oprahism" and the other "Voodoo".

 

[SuperBeaverInc.]

To really get points for a mad Futurama reference, name one "Oprahism" and the other "Voodoo".

They also had the Church of Star Trek

 

[Red Door]

You really should essentially "wipe out" a religion when you destroy the last civ to have that religion.
For example let's say the Mali people are the only ones with Hinduism, and you destroy them, then that religion is gone.

 

[SuperBeaverInc.]

But the people could still be practising it. You would have to convert them first.

 

[tcjsavannah]

Sweet Zombie Jesus!

 

[Melendwyr]

They also had the Church of Star Trek

Except that faith really was totally wiped out. Its adherents were killed and its holy scriptures sent to an obscure, forbidden planet.

 

[JP Marat]

I plan on renaming 2 of the religions Scientology and Oprahism

Hopefully, then, it will be possible to mod it so that Scientology speeds construction of the "Hollywood" wonder. Or vice-versa.

 

[SilentMage]

...I'd also like to make a new wonder of the world called the Religious Patriarch. Whoever founds it has their religion basically like in a papacy. i'll model my wonder on the UN but it'll be available much earlier. Anyway, civs with the same state religion will be members and you can call crusades and such- meaning you all declare war on other nations for their religions.

Whoever holds the papacy will be rotated somehow (maybe by vote) every 10 turns or so.

Looting and general mayhem will then ensue...

I'll have go obsolete with something like constitutional government discovery or somesuch.

I like that idea very much, Dearmad. I have a few things to say about it as well:

--The civilization that is elected the papal seat should receive an additional economic bonus (at least in the medieval and maybe industrial ages, when the papacy is strong) as well as a stronger resiliance to other religious influences.

--I wouldn't have it become obsolete. Instead, if the religion that is represented by the papacy is wiped out or if the wonder is destroyed (you capture and raze the city that the wonder was in, for example) the papacy dissolves, thus becoming "obsolete."

--As a solution to the powers that are bistowed upon the papacy throughout the ages, you can simply have the papacy become weaker as the civilizations advance in tech instead of making it become obsolete -- this would more relate to the actual papacy today, which has very little political power (no kings or presidents are being thrown out of office by the whim of the pope). So by the late-game, the papacy is more of a figurehead for a single religion, bringing that religion more religious influence and money over the rest, but nothing much more than that.

EDIT: The papacy, upon it's forming, can form religious alliances, which would allow for easier and more coordinated crusades among multiple nations that ally with the papacy. This also leads to mounting pressure on those nations that resist the conversions of the religion represented by the papacy.

 

[Jecrell]

Now we just need an expansion pack like Conquests so we can simulate WWII in Europe with Hitler.

Unless someone here wants to do it first.

 

[minger]

Hopefully, then, it will be possible to mod it so that Scientology speeds construction of the "Hollywood" wonder. Or vice-versa.

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[sela1s1son]

I'd like to be able to choose to found a religion or not, and thus allow it to be founded by another AI Civ.

Let's say I simply feel like being a Jewish civ in a game, and I wish to leave Hinduism for someone else and not have to 'deal with it' in my civ as I want to make mine Jewish (or Christian, or Muslim, or whatever) instead. I hope when I get Polytheism you get the choice to found the faith or not, and if you don't someone else can found it.

As for the moral side of wiping relgions out: We can wipe out entire civilization(s)... not just conquer... but eliminate, so to push a religion into obscurity/the past by conversion/conquest/etc is no different then saying "I am going to destroy all the Roman cities".

Here's another question: Let's say I'm at war with... let's say the Greeks... and I decide to raze Delphi (or as in previous civs it's size one and is automatically razed) and it has the Shrine and/or is the Holy City of Religion X... does Religion X get a 'new' Holy City (like moving capitals) or a 'new' shrine? (Similar)?

 

[SilentMage]

I'd like to be able to choose to found a religion or not, and thus allow it to be founded by another AI Civ.

Let's say I simply feel like being a Jewish civ in a game, and I wish to leave Hinduism for someone else and not have to 'deal with it' in my civ as I want to make mine Jewish (or Christian, or Muslim, or whatever) instead. I hope when I get Polytheism you get the choice to found the faith or not, and if you don't someone else can found it.

After some thinking, I must agree that it would be better to allow other civs to found a religion that you choose to, for one reason or another, suppress under your heels.

But based on what I've read in the pre-release about religion, I don't think that vanilla CIV will allow you to choose whether or not you can found a religion if you're first to get one.

Here's another question: Let's say I'm at war with... let's say the Greeks... and I decide to raze Delphi (or as in previous civs it's size one and is automatically razed) and it has the Shrine and/or is the Holy City of Religion X... does Religion X get a 'new' Holy City (like moving capitals) or a 'new' shrine? (Similar)?

Based on the pre-release information, a Holy City apparently is simply chosen at random, "but usually it'll be a city close to your capital." I don't like this at all because you should have to build a structure that would physically symbolize a Holy City instead of just saying "Let's make New York the Holy City of Religion X because it's closest to DC." Based on this, I think that if your Holy City is razed, then another nearby city will become the new Holy City.

I'm not entirely for this method. What should happen is that, upon founding a religion, you are given the opprotunity to build a religious wonder that is granted to those that found religions. This wonder would be the Holy City, which would officially label the city it's built in as Religion X's Holy City. Sure, it would cost more than just having a city chosen at random (which costs nothing, I'm sure! ), but having the flexibility of choosing where you would want your religion to spread from certainly should matter.

 

[Shigga]

I plan on renaming 2 of the religions Scientology and Oprahism

Good Idea. My choice would be Scientology and Pastafarianism. I will adobt the latter and crush every city that belongs to the other. Oh the satisfaction!

 

[Tigranes II]

About holy cities:

Some religions have more than one holy city, some sects of a religion have their own holy city, Confucianism and Taoism (to the best of my limited knowledge) don't have holy cities, Jerusalem is claimed as a holy city by three religions... I've got a buncha complaints.

Oh, and what about schisms and heresies inside a religion? Protestants and Catholics killed each other en masse for nearly two hundred years after Luther's 95 theses; is there no way for Civ IV to have this kind of intra-religious hatred? And how about having weird cults like the Movementarians draw your people away from cities that have high levels of discontent (or low levels of education)?

 

[Crayton]

You probably can't raze a holy city. Thus it would take some MAJOR missionary work to erradicate all adherants of a religion.

 

[Dearmad]

I like that idea very much, Dearmad. I have a few things to say about it as well:

--The civilization that is elected the papal seat should receive an additional economic bonus (at least in the medieval and maybe industrial ages, when the papacy is strong) as well as a stronger resiliance to other religious influences.

--I wouldn't have it become obsolete. Instead, if the religion that is represented by the papacy is wiped out or if the wonder is destroyed (you capture and raze the city that the wonder was in, for example) the papacy dissolves, thus becoming "obsolete."

--As a solution to the powers that are bistowed upon the papacy throughout the ages, you can simply have the papacy become weaker as the civilizations advance in tech instead of making it become obsolete -- this would more relate to the actual papacy today, which has very little political power (no kings or presidents are being thrown out of office by the whim of the pope). So by the late-game, the papacy is more of a figurehead for a single religion, bringing that religion more religious influence and money over the rest, but nothing much more than that.

EDIT: The papacy, upon it's forming, can form religious alliances, which would allow for easier and more coordinated crusades among multiple nations that ally with the papacy. This also leads to mounting pressure on those nations that resist the conversions of the religion represented by the papacy.

Hey great ideas! Thanks for adding on. I'll definitely be adding in something like this- maybe the papacy could even generate a Knight unit or something every few turns... There's loads of ways to go about this one.

Your religious alliance idea rocks! That'll go in.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

About holy cities:

Some religions have more than one holy city, some sects of a religion have their own holy city, Confucianism and Taoism (to the best of my limited knowledge) don't have holy cities, Jerusalem is claimed as a holy city by three religions... I've got a buncha complaints.

Oh, and what about schisms and heresies inside a religion? Protestants and Catholics killed each other en masse for nearly two hundred years after Luther's 95 theses; is there no way for Civ IV to have this kind of intra-religious hatred? And how about having weird cults like the Movementarians draw your people away from cities that have high levels of discontent (or low levels of education)?

Actually, the Holy Cities model this quite well...sort of. Imagine 3 civs, each with the same religion, Civ 1 has the Holy City of that religion which means it is getting a bunch of extra money. The other 2 Civs would then have a particular reason to take that city (because It'll make the religion they are naturally spreading more valuable)

I don't thing a structure for a Holy City is a particularly good idea, a Holy City is often like a Historic City, it is just where something important happened (in this case the founding of a Religion). no 'structure' required. Also the player has only a limited control over the religion.

From that view point I'd consider two reasonable possiblities when a Holy City is razed

1. The spot the city was in becomes a 'Holy Site' for that religion and any city founded on (or near?) that site becomes a new Holy City [I think this strategy should be used for World Wonders as well]

2. The Holy City relocates (first looking at cities that adhere to the religion, and then possibly other cities? meaning it could never be eliminated) similar to a capital




I do think that there is nothing preventing one city from being the Holy City for Multiple religions (making it a Very valuable cash prize for many civs)