Other side of the barrel: how do i fight _against_ SABRs without losing any unit?

[Fins]

I really need an advice, and i can't find any. Please, help! If the following is TL,DR for you, then can you just answer the title question for me: how do i fight _against_ SABRs without losing any unit?

Thanks!


TL,DR follows.

I'm going through my best-so-far long play, single player, Gemini difficulty (i decided to go relaxed). So far so good, got myself a blooming mind flower some turn ~240, right now it's turn 286 (it's a long play, so "just one more turn", of course), affinities 18/16/11, and will be 18/16/16+ by turn 300. Some 1.8k science, tons of energy, new virtue popping up every 5 turns, and 2500+ score (best of AIs sits at 830).

Thinking ahead about what i'll be doing, i decided that this time (this long play game), i want to make two battle groups, make some wars, but this time, without losing any single unit. I want 'em two "armies" become ultra-elite (using MOO2 term here - yep i got +1 veterancy level wonder, for sure). For this, they need to live through LOTS of war.

Tactical retreats to heal, reserve forces to screen wounded, heavy air support (carriers), sieging LEV Destroyers (+1 range upgrade), flanking Angels vs waves of cheap melee attackers - all that, i'll do, and i hope to manage no losses.

But there is one big question: how on earth do i ensure no losses against +60% ranged power upgraded SABRs (which is, "evolved" SABR when attacking any wounded unit) - firing at my forces from the safety of an AI city? One of AIs on the continent, Kozlov, went Supremacy, and is level 11 affinity already. Means, he'll definitely get upgraded SABRs before i'll get to stomp him, and he could well go this +60% vs wounded evolved-SABR route for all i know.

See, i speak about (58+28)*160% = 137,6 ranged power slugs here (base value - multiply this further by any extra bonuses those SABRs may have from veterancy, virtues, etc).

That's a LOT of firepower, obviously, even vs ultimate affinity units i might be willing to use for a front line duty. This would cripple or even kill LEV destroyer in one hit, seriously damage an ANGEL - to the point of needing to retreat and heal, - and even do a XENO titan in just a few hits. "Ouch".

I thought and thought, but couldn't see any much hope for my plan "let no unit die". Upgraded SABRs nuke anything in range of 4, no matter terrain, and when stationed in an AI city, that SABR would sure have targeting far around the city, too.

With that high ranged power, those SABRs would probably insta-kill any ranged unit trying to get in range. Including my own SABRs - they have extremely low combat power (as opposed to their extremely high ranged power). I guess for my plan, ranged units are out of question in the "we gotta take out that SABR!" situation.

This means it will need to be melee. Obviously i could try to "rush" in with 2-3 Xeno Titans, going with +50% solo booster - that would most likely work against such a "city with a SABR", if that city would stand alone. But then, what if it's not just a "city + SABR", but "city + SABR + tacjets + cruiser + few ranged units coming in now and then"? Xeno Titans have speed = 2. Means, they'll spend 2 turns just approaching the city, without doing any damage, under fire of that SABR - and 2nd turn, under fire of other ranged units and city itself. I doubt they would have enough punch to raze late-game AI city after that...

Teleporting units right in is not always available - to do it, one needs satellite coverage nearby, but it's not always available. Plus, SABRs have anti-orbital strikes, and AI cities have it too, and are not shy to use it - in fact, exactly opposite, they shoot down player's satellites any chance given.

So i'm quite stuck, you see. Any ideas?


P.S. If i'll encounter such cities+SABR hard situations, currently, my only hope is to use a bunch of cheap units flooding into and around the city, taking it out despite SABR and other units' fire - no matter the losses, - and "clear the path" for one of the two "no man dies!" battle groups. But then, what battle group it is, if it needs a swarm of "can waste them" units to do their job - and also, it's quite idiotic to use "meat troops" in order to let "no man dies" army to proceed. Because doing the former quite destrys the purpose of the latter. So you see, i really need some better solution... Please, help! %)

 

[Gritf]

My guess is that either you send a number of long range units in position at the same time that do not die from one-shots. One takes the heat, while the others keep firing at the city. Retreat the wounded unit and replace it whit another long range unit. Repeat.

Another way is to attack with planes, wich wil be shoted from the city but not from the SABR. Since the AI only knows how to do air strikes with their arcraft they won't intercept.

Either way, when the city is low enough in hit points send two armors, one to die from the SABR and another to capture the city. The unit inside the city and their aircraft will then be "undone".

 

[Fins]

Yeah, i know units in cities are nil when city is taken. Can't do "two armors" part - as you say yourself, one would probably die. Not what i am looking for.

Ranged units which could possibly do are LEV destroyers with +1 range, only, i guess. Start at -5 tiles with 4 of them, turn 1 - they go in to -3 tiles, AI turn - one is hurt, turn 2 - damaged LEV destroyer gets out, the rest set up and fire. Anything less than LEV destroyes can be insta-killed by such evolved SABR if some other unit comes out and scratches that ranged unit before SABR fires at it, i guess...

But then there is the problem of +1 range on LEV destroyers only being available while they are full health. If AI during its 1st turn send out any things which scratch some of LEV destroyers - including jets - then whole plan is bust: can't send LEV destroyers further into enemy territory to -2 tiles from the city, since most likely they won't make it back to safety, given that SABR and city hitting them.

I found three safer solutions myself since making of the 1st post.

1st, for coastal cities and cities 2...3 tiles into the landmass - there is absolutely safe option of using Vindicators with "can move after attacking" perk. Which i have. Speed 7 means they can start at -5 or even -6 tiles from the city, spend 2-3 MP to get to -3 tiles, fire at the city, then still have enough movement to get back to safety of -5 or -6 tiles, all during same turn. They have just enough ranged power to wear out even some 100+ strength city in a few turns. Once city is low/zero HP, have a lone evolved Xeno titan go in and take it, or perhaps even use a carrier with its 6 movement points to prevent the SABR from firing a single shot - can carriers melee attack cities?

2nd, for cities which are not reachable with Vindicators, - there is slow but safe option to build magrails at -5, -4 and -3 tiles from such a city+SABR. Obviously, worker would be building them while being on the same tile with evolved xeno titans, which would be soaking SABR fire, replacing each other as needed. Couple of my own SABRs at -5 tiles from the city giving cover, too. With those magrails done for a few -3 tiles firing positions, i can then send in LEV destroyers which would fire very _same_ turn they 1st appear inside range-4 radius of enemy SABR: starting at -5 tiles, they move to -3 range from the city via magrails, thus spending _less_ than 1 movement point to get there, which means they still have 1 full MP to set up and remaining fraction of another MP to fire at the city. If able to reduce the city to zero or near zero HP during this 1st turn (quite likely, LEV destroyers have high ranged power), then it's even possible to send in a lone Xeno cavalry unit which would capture the city - magrails would allow it to be able to attack the city even when starting at -5 tiles. This tactic would work for any NAture-heavy player, obviously.

Another, even safer option, with magrails to -3 tiles from city+SABR - is to use redeemers (combat rover last upgrade, Supremacy), and wouldn't need any Nature affinity levels or units. Going with +50% flanking and +20% when near friendly units upgrades. These have 4 movement points. Using magrails, 4 of those those can start at -5...-7 tiles and, using magrails made to -3 tiles from enemy city, move in to 4 tiles directly next to the city, thus forming nice flanking formation, and then take the city - all in the same turn, not giving the SABR any chance to fire. Their combat power is 52 base, then with that +70% of bonuses it becomes 88. Should be enough.

The only doubt i have about the last option - is whether flanking works vs cities. I even necroed the topic about flanking to clear them up - search didn't clarify it... %)


edit: oh, and about jets. Risky! Note this topic is how "i" fight against SABRs. In the 1st post, i explained my situation - it's long play, Gemini, warfare will be starting well after turn 300. Even now at turn 305, most AI cities are at 80+ strength already, some are 90+. Jets may be fine and cool earlier in the game vs AI cities, but for me, using them would most likely mean losses - as you say, cities will shoot at my attacking jets, and jets are relatively low combat power things... Too fragile! And, of course, i need 'em jets for interception vs enemy jets, which is why i didn't take that +50% vs cities upgrade.

 

[LORD ORION]

Moar lev tanks.

 

[Halbbruder]

On the defensive: aircraft because their melee (defence) combat strength is very weak, assuming that they're guarded by surrounding melee units. Given that this is a supremacy unit, they'll be hard to reach if you're going to try and break through their formations.

On the offensive: hover tanks will deal with SABRs rather nicely. Otherwise, try and outmaneuver them by attacking where you will be out of their range. If they have a confined area to defend with SABRs, it would be best not to engage. If your world contains plenty of sea and your SABR enemy is on the coast, consider using carriers and planes but make sure the carriers are 4 tiles away from mark I SABRs and 5 tiles from mark II SABRs.

In this case, seeing you're using harmony, true xeno-titans may help. I got rolled in one of my early MP games because my opponent expanded wildly, got ahead, got heaps of xenomass and had several true xeno-titans, which have ranged resistance as one of their perks.

 

[4N4C0ND4]

If you want to get into "abuse", you can lure SABRs out of the city with a lone worker.

Artificial Intelligence, nuff said

 

[Fins]

Yep, AIs are primitive in Civ:BE. I sure don't blame Firaxis, though - to create a "smart" AI, even for a computer game - is monumental task well beyond capabilities of nearly all game design studios.

And no, thanks, i was not, and am not, looking for "cheap tricks". You know, most of solutions i and others proposed in this topic - can even be used in multiplayer, against human opponent. I mean, for example, how much human player could do if his city+sabr+3_jets gets assaulted by a few Vindicators, which start their turn 6 tiles away from the city, get in to 3 tiles away, make their shots, and retreat back to 6 tiles away, back to the carrier which has 2-3 tacjets doing intercept duties each turn, huh? I think those cruisers would kick the city to zero health rather fast. And then, send in a lone evolved (+50% when alone) Xeno Titan, preferably with a few veterancy levels already gained - and that city is easy take. Attempts to fend off that titan with any units won't help, as Titan will heal upon killing every unit, while still getting closer and closer to the city - and since it's about city offense, we know that defending player most likely don't have any large army remaining, or at least, not near the city. Once near the city, the Titan would only need one hit - thanks to cruisers, - to take the city. Anyone who plays thinking "i'll make tought cities putting SABRs and jets in them" can be in for quite a surprise you see - which is, not only such a city can be taken (it can be done by many enough units despite losses, sure), - but can be taken without any single unit lost.

 

[4N4C0ND4]

With tons of mag-rail, can't you move&shot at the same time with sabr?
If so, then enough of them + tanks will be enough to take a city in 1 turn

Also, IIRC, the lower the city defence is, the lower dmg it does (not 100% sure, has the "feel").
So don't be afraid to put units in range after lowering the city strength.

There is also the fact that AI prioritize wonded units, even slightly over fresh one. They would bombard your 99hp xeno titan over the full SABR unless they can destroy it in turn