Palace and Throne Room
- Thread starter alexwebb2
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TheManFromMars
Warlord
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Hey Alexwebb2,
Hope you had a good holiday. The stats are very impressive, glad to see it is getting some good recognition. I have a request and I know some coders/modders don't do this so it's fine if you don't or haven't got the info available but a changelog of some description with the file could be very helpful to those like me testing/helping out etc and just for people's general curiousity.
I didn't know if for example there had been another update recently and could swear the 'chance of upgrade' had gone down (especially on Social Policies) but couldn't tell as there was no changelog. Also I noticed my throne room v1 updated and keeps doing so randomly, so it became a touch confusing as to which was the newest version. I've just assumed any updates would come in the form of a new version but some modders either don't do this or forget so I was just checking.
I'll begin work on a Palace Icon too Alexwebb2, and you can use it or not as necessary. I'll try and keep it in keeping with the last one and with the game.
-Nutty
I'll draft up another throne room icon along the lines of what you suggested and then we can decide which works best then.
-Mars
Hope you had a good holiday. The stats are very impressive, glad to see it is getting some good recognition. I have a request and I know some coders/modders don't do this so it's fine if you don't or haven't got the info available but a changelog of some description with the file could be very helpful to those like me testing/helping out etc and just for people's general curiousity.
I didn't know if for example there had been another update recently and could swear the 'chance of upgrade' had gone down (especially on Social Policies) but couldn't tell as there was no changelog. Also I noticed my throne room v1 updated and keeps doing so randomly, so it became a touch confusing as to which was the newest version. I've just assumed any updates would come in the form of a new version but some modders either don't do this or forget so I was just checking.
I'll begin work on a Palace Icon too Alexwebb2, and you can use it or not as necessary. I'll try and keep it in keeping with the last one and with the game.
-Nutty
I'll draft up another throne room icon along the lines of what you suggested and then we can decide which works best then.
-Mars
I do have the changes listed on the Steam page. I'll probably also add a readme to the zip in the next update.
I haven't issued any updates to the mod past version 2. There's a bug in Civ which causes mods to re-download very excessively, even when there's no new updates, so that's what you're seeing there.
I haven't issued any updates to the mod past version 2. There's a bug in Civ which causes mods to re-download very excessively, even when there's no new updates, so that's what you're seeing there.
Socratatus
Emperor
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I install manually (not steam) and I`ve had no real problems except I had to retick the mods everytime, but since the hotfix, I don`t even have to do that now, the game remembers what mods I`ve chosen.
TheManFromMars
Warlord
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Good to know. I just thought it replaced the old update, it's annoying to get all versions showing up, oh well 
can't be helped.
An option for the civ specific stuff could be a tooltip that states "to toggle civ specific X press the CTRL Key" by the way or have that message at the bottom etc. just a thought as people may notice you've added it in the update but forgotten how to use it or didn't read instructions in the readme. Also I would recommend a 'Key Toggle' instead of a mouse wheel as not all mice have a wheel. In fact Right Click to to toggle between generic and Civ specific may be best as most Civ players largely don't use the keyboard much. I do but I'm not everyone
Looking forward to seeing the next release.
-Mars
can't be helped. An option for the civ specific stuff could be a tooltip that states "to toggle civ specific X press the CTRL Key" by the way or have that message at the bottom etc. just a thought as people may notice you've added it in the update but forgotten how to use it or didn't read instructions in the readme. Also I would recommend a 'Key Toggle' instead of a mouse wheel as not all mice have a wheel. In fact Right Click to to toggle between generic and Civ specific may be best as most Civ players largely don't use the keyboard much. I do but I'm not everyone
Looking forward to seeing the next release.
-Mars
A key toggle doesn't really work for cases where there are more than two possibilities. With the palace, for example, there are three options for each building upgrade - Medieval, Classical, and Eastern. You could add in a second toggle, but then that starts getting complicated and you're kind of limited with what you can do from there.
I hadn't considered the possibility that people wouldn't have mouse wheels, but I suppose that will be the case for some players (especially on laptops), so I'll throw in some left/right or up/down arrow key support for cycling through the options.
Anyway, I've finished the arduous task of aligning and splitting out all of the various palace images (52 in total), and I'm about to tackle the code side of it.
One question: should the palace have its own upgrade points that are earned and spent separately from the throne room upgrade points, or should they just go into a single pool? If it's a single pool, then the alert would be something like "Throne Room/Palace Upgrade Available", and would use one of the icons (or a hybrid icon). If we're tracking the points separately, then they'd each get their own alerts with their own icons.
What do you guys think? Neither way is particularly easier or harder than the other.
I hadn't considered the possibility that people wouldn't have mouse wheels, but I suppose that will be the case for some players (especially on laptops), so I'll throw in some left/right or up/down arrow key support for cycling through the options.
Anyway, I've finished the arduous task of aligning and splitting out all of the various palace images (52 in total), and I'm about to tackle the code side of it.
One question: should the palace have its own upgrade points that are earned and spent separately from the throne room upgrade points, or should they just go into a single pool? If it's a single pool, then the alert would be something like "Throne Room/Palace Upgrade Available", and would use one of the icons (or a hybrid icon). If we're tracking the points separately, then they'd each get their own alerts with their own icons.
What do you guys think? Neither way is particularly easier or harder than the other.
Socratatus
Emperor
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Interesting question.
I don`t think it matters either way. But I guess the Throne room would be in the palace, right? So the cash would be going to the same kind of things, so I`d say pool togther and let the player decide where to allocate.
I don`t think it matters either way. But I guess the Throne room would be in the palace, right? So the cash would be going to the same kind of things, so I`d say pool togther and let the player decide where to allocate.
TheManFromMars
Warlord
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- Oct 25, 2010
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I don't agree with pooling the resources at all - unless you are going to step up the chance of upgrades.
I think it'd be MUCH better to be separate and have it be clearly separate things that trigger the upgrades. So for example, up the percentage chance of getting an upgrade and say split the things that cause them between the palace and the throne room.
So something like:
Throne Room: Social Policies, Allied City-State Status,
Palace: Wonders, Golden Ages, Eras
Just a rough idea, a 75% chance of upgrade.
-Mars
I think it'd be MUCH better to be separate and have it be clearly separate things that trigger the upgrades. So for example, up the percentage chance of getting an upgrade and say split the things that cause them between the palace and the throne room.
So something like:
Throne Room: Social Policies, Allied City-State Status,
Palace: Wonders, Golden Ages, Eras
Just a rough idea, a 75% chance of upgrade.
-Mars
Nutty
Deity
In theory, I like keeping them separate and resulting from different triggers, but since there will be twice as many, they won't feel nearly as "special" and it might even feel like you're getting notification spammed.
TheManFromMars
Warlord
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Nutty is probably right. Never thought about them getting spammed.
On the other hand I was testing it with Chieftan difficulty on Quick speed with the French (to maximize number of upgrades) and I still wasn't getting spammed or anywhere close. Doubling it on those settings may get annoying but only might. Plus upgrades get less common.
But if that is annoying what about using Coin for Palace Upgrades? And even faith?
You could get one "You have ecrued enough X to purchase a Palace Upgrade" notification when you reach say 100 currency. The message wouldn't come back at 200 currency etc. so it'd work like the faith purchasing notification. It could go incrementally or just remain a stock value.
Another option would be a simple point system that is tied to and mirrors the point system. At each step in the victory points you get an upgrade. So:
Step 1 - 100 points
Step 2 - 200 points
...
Step 15 - 1500 points
You get the idea. Also once a step was reached its upgrade is a one off so you get to 700 points, lose a city or something, drop below 700, retake what was lost and go back above 700 you don't get that upgrade again.
Food for thought.
-Mars
On the other hand I was testing it with Chieftan difficulty on Quick speed with the French (to maximize number of upgrades) and I still wasn't getting spammed or anywhere close. Doubling it on those settings may get annoying but only might. Plus upgrades get less common.
But if that is annoying what about using Coin for Palace Upgrades? And even faith?
You could get one "You have ecrued enough X to purchase a Palace Upgrade" notification when you reach say 100 currency. The message wouldn't come back at 200 currency etc. so it'd work like the faith purchasing notification. It could go incrementally or just remain a stock value.
Another option would be a simple point system that is tied to and mirrors the point system. At each step in the victory points you get an upgrade. So:
Step 1 - 100 points
Step 2 - 200 points
...
Step 15 - 1500 points
You get the idea. Also once a step was reached its upgrade is a one off so you get to 700 points, lose a city or something, drop below 700, retake what was lost and go back above 700 you don't get that upgrade again.
Food for thought.
-Mars
Nutty
Deity
I'd think you'd spend coin on the Throne room rather than the Palace if that's the case, but I think gold is too important in the midgame to make it the only path to upgrades.
The Victory point idea might be good...
Though you did give me a crazy idea that certain special upgrades could be tied to a purchasing model. Gold for a golden throne, say, or faith for religious iconography, etc. Ooh, maybe have the religious ones tied to the civ's dominant religion... the ark of the covenant for Judaism, Buddha statues, shrines, crosses, etc.
I've been very busy lately IRL, but I'll post what I've got for the beginnings of a new custom throne scene (Photoshopped from some pics of the Munich Residenz):
I'm still playing with it to get the canopy to not look stupid but at the same time not block the portrait behind. I may just take the canopy out. The other thought is to have the canopy be a separate upgrade as an alternative to a portrait.
The Victory point idea might be good...
Though you did give me a crazy idea that certain special upgrades could be tied to a purchasing model. Gold for a golden throne, say, or faith for religious iconography, etc. Ooh, maybe have the religious ones tied to the civ's dominant religion... the ark of the covenant for Judaism, Buddha statues, shrines, crosses, etc.
I've been very busy lately IRL, but I'll post what I've got for the beginnings of a new custom throne scene (Photoshopped from some pics of the Munich Residenz):
I'm still playing with it to get the canopy to not look stupid but at the same time not block the portrait behind. I may just take the canopy out. The other thought is to have the canopy be a separate upgrade as an alternative to a portrait.
Socratatus
Emperor
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oh well, i`m not too bothered either way about the pool thing. Whatever you guys come to an agreement with.
TheManFromMars
Warlord
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- Oct 25, 2010
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- 102
I like the faith specific stuff. The visual or auditory impact of faith feels very minimal on Civ V unlike Civ IV, I like G+K expansion but the faith aspect always felt like a mod that just crept around empires silently. So faith objects specific to the faith could be great. Gold for gold objects is also interesting.
These things could be based on an accumulation system. The game tracks totals of science, gold etc I think, so having it linked to those like I described with victory points. This way gold, science and faith etc could be 'spent' without actually being spent (which would affect gameplay) and benefit varying playing styles like we discussed earlier.
Hell, you could even just have a new 'Heroic Point' system which dolls out points for various actions; killing units; capturing cities; making alliances; obtaining new luxuries and so on. This could be counted at the top bar with other things like gold, science, culture, faith and so on. This might be hard to code though and you'd want to avoid making it with dll dependencies.
Hope it's all clear Alexwebb2 and others, let me know what you think.
-Mars
These things could be based on an accumulation system. The game tracks totals of science, gold etc I think, so having it linked to those like I described with victory points. This way gold, science and faith etc could be 'spent' without actually being spent (which would affect gameplay) and benefit varying playing styles like we discussed earlier.
Hell, you could even just have a new 'Heroic Point' system which dolls out points for various actions; killing units; capturing cities; making alliances; obtaining new luxuries and so on. This could be counted at the top bar with other things like gold, science, culture, faith and so on. This might be hard to code though and you'd want to avoid making it with dll dependencies.
Hope it's all clear Alexwebb2 and others, let me know what you think.
-Mars
Socratatus
Emperor
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Maybe we`re getting a bit ahead of ourselves here? I`d say stick with the basic stuff we have now and get the mod complete before running too far or too fast with complex stuff.
mitsho
Deity
Cool Idea and cool work! Thanks.
I'd rather tie Religion in differently, getting a symbol/flag/statue tied to your religion when you found it or it's majority religion in your civ.
Wouldn't it be easier generally to just tie in palace upgrades with the Points Ranking you can see on the upper right side/civ list. You know, the one deciding time victories!
I'd rather tie Religion in differently, getting a symbol/flag/statue tied to your religion when you found it or it's majority religion in your civ.
Wouldn't it be easier generally to just tie in palace upgrades with the Points Ranking you can see on the upper right side/civ list. You know, the one deciding time victories!
TheManFromMars
Warlord
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- Oct 25, 2010
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Well victory points was still my first suggestion, and it's still probs my favourite concept. Would just need discussion on how to implement it.
-Mars
-Mars
rhammer640
Russian Monk
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- Aug 9, 2010
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So on a side note, is this mod compatible with other mods? Specifically Thals GEM/civUP? I would assume none of the original game files are altered making this compatible with everything but i wanted to check. Also might be good to write that on the front post if it is.
Look forward to trying this out!
Look forward to trying this out!
TheManFromMars
Warlord
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@rhammer640
I'd assume it has full compatibility, included the mod you are speaking of but you could always just test it. It makes a few cosmetic changes to the info menu but as far as I can tell that's about the only thing that could be an issue - although I'm almost certain it isn't. Been a bit quiet here the last week or so, hopefully everything is progressing as planned.
@Socratatus
I don't think anyone is getting ahead of themselves mate - this is somewhat quite a crucial thign to figure out now sicne it'd be harder I assume to change later and it's really quite foundational. Okay some of the stuff being discussed is going far into the future but it's just sending out webs, it's nothing concrete, there is often no harm in lighting the way with a mod providing it doesn't obstruct actual movement.
-Mars
I'd assume it has full compatibility, included the mod you are speaking of but you could always just test it. It makes a few cosmetic changes to the info menu but as far as I can tell that's about the only thing that could be an issue - although I'm almost certain it isn't. Been a bit quiet here the last week or so, hopefully everything is progressing as planned.
@Socratatus
I don't think anyone is getting ahead of themselves mate - this is somewhat quite a crucial thign to figure out now sicne it'd be harder I assume to change later and it's really quite foundational. Okay some of the stuff being discussed is going far into the future but it's just sending out webs, it's nothing concrete, there is often no harm in lighting the way with a mod providing it doesn't obstruct actual movement.
-Mars
TheManFromMars
Warlord
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- Oct 25, 2010
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Been busy with real life so haven't gotten around to the palace icon. Will do soon though, providing this is still being worked on?
-Mars
-Mars
DocVertigo
Chieftain
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2011
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- 6
Some thoughts on the attainment method issue...
Pooling the Throne Room and Palace upgrades into the same system could work if there's a similar number of upgrades for each, but as ManFromMars said, it doesn't feel remotely like we're getting spammed with notifications, so I don't think it would be problematic to have more.
If you'd rather separate them, rather than giving them a random chance to occur on certain events, how about having a metre which is gradually filled, at which point an upgrade happens? ManFromMars mentioned the idea of an accumulation system a few posts up. For example, the Throne Room metre could build up with Culture and positive Happiness (with significant bumps happening for Social Policies, Golden Ages and relevant Great People), the Palace metre building up with Gold per turn and Faith (significant bumps for all the other Great People).
Or, you know, just go with victory points as already mentioned...
Civ 5 has very little randomness in the gameplay design, it's mostly a game of filling or depleting metres. Whether it's visually represented or not, this would fit the game nicely.
This might change the concept of the mod too much, but another suggestion could be that upgrading the Palace makes a small change to the Palace building in your capital city (for example, +1% Culture, Production, Food or Strength per upgrade, depending on the type).
In this case, it would balance things to make Palace upgrades purchasable via resources (Gold, Faith) rather than happen in a natural progression (or as well as?). It would mirror real-world circumstances in which vast sums of money are spent on aristocratic dwellings while the rest of the country suffers from the expense (Tsarist Russia, modern North Korea).
The thing with the Palace is that its look isn't era-specific, so there doesn't need to be an even, natural pace to it (unlike the Throne Room - you'd feel weird having a stone age cave when you're building a ship to Alpha Centauri).
Ultimately, this system would differentiate the Throne Room, being a reflection of your progress, with the Palace reflecting your gameplay ideology.
One more thing, and I don't think this has been mentioned, but as of v2 the order of Throne Room upgrades isn't correct (just for the first couple of 'levels').
-Wall: ruined stone should come before rock.
-Floor: smooth, dark stone should come before sandy.
-Front pillars: wood should come before stone. Back pillars are in the right order though.
-Back wall: dark gravelly surface should come before rock; however on my copy of Civ 2 this is bugged and the rock wall displays for the first two levels.
To demonstrate, a few screens from Civ 2 (with bugged back wall):
-Start
-Tier 1
-Tier 2
I'd just like to say though, LOVE the mod, awesome idea and great execution. Massively anticipating the next version.
Pooling the Throne Room and Palace upgrades into the same system could work if there's a similar number of upgrades for each, but as ManFromMars said, it doesn't feel remotely like we're getting spammed with notifications, so I don't think it would be problematic to have more.
If you'd rather separate them, rather than giving them a random chance to occur on certain events, how about having a metre which is gradually filled, at which point an upgrade happens? ManFromMars mentioned the idea of an accumulation system a few posts up. For example, the Throne Room metre could build up with Culture and positive Happiness (with significant bumps happening for Social Policies, Golden Ages and relevant Great People), the Palace metre building up with Gold per turn and Faith (significant bumps for all the other Great People).
Or, you know, just go with victory points as already mentioned...
Civ 5 has very little randomness in the gameplay design, it's mostly a game of filling or depleting metres. Whether it's visually represented or not, this would fit the game nicely.
This might change the concept of the mod too much, but another suggestion could be that upgrading the Palace makes a small change to the Palace building in your capital city (for example, +1% Culture, Production, Food or Strength per upgrade, depending on the type).
In this case, it would balance things to make Palace upgrades purchasable via resources (Gold, Faith) rather than happen in a natural progression (or as well as?). It would mirror real-world circumstances in which vast sums of money are spent on aristocratic dwellings while the rest of the country suffers from the expense (Tsarist Russia, modern North Korea).
The thing with the Palace is that its look isn't era-specific, so there doesn't need to be an even, natural pace to it (unlike the Throne Room - you'd feel weird having a stone age cave when you're building a ship to Alpha Centauri).
Ultimately, this system would differentiate the Throne Room, being a reflection of your progress, with the Palace reflecting your gameplay ideology.
One more thing, and I don't think this has been mentioned, but as of v2 the order of Throne Room upgrades isn't correct (just for the first couple of 'levels').
-Wall: ruined stone should come before rock.
-Floor: smooth, dark stone should come before sandy.
-Front pillars: wood should come before stone. Back pillars are in the right order though.
-Back wall: dark gravelly surface should come before rock; however on my copy of Civ 2 this is bugged and the rock wall displays for the first two levels.
To demonstrate, a few screens from Civ 2 (with bugged back wall):
-Start
-Tier 1
-Tier 2
I'd just like to say though, LOVE the mod, awesome idea and great execution. Massively anticipating the next version.
