Paratrooper/Helicopter

[Gen.Rommel]

Does anyone want to see any of these units come back into civ? Or in the case of the paratrooper, giving certain units and "airborne" promotion, that would allow them to parachute a certain distance. Particularly useful when playing island maps, or in rocky terrain.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

I don't really want a paratroop unit back, but I do think a series of Paradrop promotions would be good. The first step, though, would be getting the AI to understand how to use all of them properly. Beyond that, I would make the first promotion an ability to airdrop into non-city squares. The second promotion would then be an ability to move after being airdropped. The 3rd promotion would be an attack/defense bonus for units immediately after an airdrop.
What do you reckon?

Aussie_Lurker.

 

[VladTepes]

I would like them both, but the helo should have longer range or they should bring back airbases as well. The helos range was too short IMHO.

 

[Panda]

There are Gunships in Civ4. I take you mean Transport helicopters?

I don't miss those, and neither do I miss paras.

 

[puglover]

I miss the paratroopers too, but my dad was Airborne so I'm biased.

 

[Quagga]

I don't miss the CivIII versions of paratroops or helicopters.

If one insists on having airdropped forces, then have infantry, tanks and artillery with airdrop promotion. Skip the helicopters and use transport planes with long ranges. These would be subject to interception. I'm not sure this could be used effectively by humans or AI, so I voted no.

 

[King Flevance]

I voted for just the helicopter but I could care less about the unit. I think that simply giving the current bombers the abilities would work. Or make a new plane all together. Or of course use Aussi Lurkers idea for promotions. The only question left on the promotions is when they would unlock by use of other promotions. Or of course you could just have the promotion be avalable at level 1 once it is unlocked after flight.

 

[Chazcon]

I've added Paratroop, Air Transport, and Helicopter Transport units in the mod I play with.

Air Transport can carry 1 Paratroop. I had to make it a land unit that ignores terrain (much like a Gunship). But then it's not subject to interception, and I think it should be. Ideally it should be an air unit, and have a new mission called Airdrop, that allows it to drop it's cargo of one Paratropp infantry anywhere within it's range. If they drop on an enemy unit, they must fight & win in order to occupy the tile. Despite the fact that real armies are able to drop a few bits of heavy equipment like light tanks and artillery, they don't go about air-dropping armored divisions. I think that only Paratroops should be able to load onto Air Transports. About making it a promotion - sure you could, but I'd rather have a unique Paratroop infantry unit with it's own stats and artwork.

Helicopter Transport is just a copy of a Gunship with different art, can only defend, and can carry cargo of 2 non-mechanized infantry - in my mod Infantry, Marines, Paratroop, Special Forces, Modern Infantry.

I think these units, while not greatly effective in combat, add a nice touch of 'spice' to the game.

 

[Scaramanga]

I like Aussie_Lurker's idea for a paratroop promotion although I don't think it would have to be as extended as that. It could just be the Airborne or Paratrooper promotion just as there are Amphibious and Commando promotions. Of course, what kind of units would be available for this promotion? Probably gunpowder units except mechanised infantry; and they could only be launched from cities.

 

[lbhhh]

As long as the AI would be able to use them properly(and they should, in civ2 the AI used paratroops appropriately ), these units get my vote to make a comeback.

 

[Quagga]

Without some kind of artillery, I don't see what use it is airdropping in forces. I guess you must use bombers to soften up the targets or suffer extremely heavy losses. That's going to be a lot of production spent on air transport and bombers. My guess is that just taking a few more turns to march in is a more cost-effective approach.

Maybe as a bow to realism, one could create a light artillery unit that could be airdropped.

I do like the idea of fighting their way to the ground if already occupied by enemy forces. Artillery units wouldn't fare well in this regard.

 

[T.A JONES]

sure why not more the merrier, about Ai usage I agree, vital. Played a civ3C game and actual remeber for the first time a 'hele' sound folowed by the message 'India has landed Paratroops in the area' That was kinda cool for a change. AI Helecopters being used I mean. (though it was a mod)

 

[Chazcon]

Without some kind of artillery, I don't see what use it is airdropping in forces. I guess you must use bombers to soften up the targets or suffer extremely heavy losses. That's going to be a lot of production spent on air transport and bombers. My guess is that just taking a few more turns to march in is a more cost-effective approach.

Maybe as a bow to realism, one could create a light artillery unit that could be airdropped.

I do like the idea of fighting their way to the ground if already occupied by enemy forces. Artillery units wouldn't fare well in this regard.

Well, in real life history, traditionally, airborne forces dropped into a hot combat zone rarely fare well. A few pieces of light artillery wouldn't have helped them. Look at the German mass airdrop on Crete. They did acheive their objectives, but a such a huge cost that the German paratroop forces was never used again, except as conventional ground forces. Study the abysmal failure that was Operation Market-Garden.

In the game, I can see dropping a Paratroop unit only on a single weakened defender, certainly not on a well-garrisoned city. In other words, the 'hot drop' would be extremely rare. What they are useful for, is to drop behind an enemy city to block or delay reinforcements. They don't have a great effect on the game, these are just 'spice' units.

 

[Quagga]

In the game, I can see dropping a Paratroop unit only on a single weakened defender, certainly not on a well-garrisoned city. In other words, the 'hot drop' would be extremely rare. What they are useful for, is to drop behind an enemy city to block or delay reinforcements. They don't have a great effect on the game, these are just 'spice' units.

I didn't mean that the artillery would be useful in a hot drop. Rather that it's needed when the forces attack the nearby city on the subsequent turn.

As for 'spice' units, after adding them, it would be a shame if these units then were mentioned with musketeers, ironclads and explorers in the Most Useless Unit thread! No spice if they don't have a good use.

 

[Gen.Rommel]

The way i see it, i would prefer that paratroops were put into the game, and helicopters would be nice, but not necessary. I dont always want to have to wait until i can get transports over to some island so i can attack, id prefer to bomb the heck out of it, and then land the paratroops. Generally, using paratroops would be for taking island cities, but thats just me.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

You see, this is why I so strongly believe in the Paradrop promotion. The Civ2 and Civ3 paratroops were much too powerful IMO. The promotion system is just about specializing gunpowder units to be able to be transported to non-city plots, and to be able to move/attack directly after an airdrop (rather than being a sitting duck). I think an extended promotion system is good, and in fact should also apply to Amphibious and Commando promotions (i.e. a 2-3 tier promotion system).

Aussie_Lurker.

 

[T.A JONES]

I can reason with you Aussie Lurker I like you Idea, but in Civ3 before any paradrop mission could be efective, the heleicpter would have to be constructed plus a maintence upkeep fee must be paid for all units invloved to that specif mission. A group of paratroops would also have to built up with a baracks inside as well to max their surviaval odds ., So what? um I guess Im saying By the time a a unit promoted to paratroop he more then likly would be a seasoned vetern with extra healt. In reality many paratroops are green and need a baracks in the city to start them off. The CIv4 brand built on promotons would come with some heavy advantages, that woudn;t realy pertain in most cases (depending of course how, the promotions were ordered)

....So what? um ,Im saying?
If any old bum can later drop from a standard plane without coming fresh out of the city que, it kind of makes it easier for the Civ4 unit. Ya also Remember the opportunity cost In CIv3 of building a paratrooper and helocopter means you miss out on the chance to build two or three tanks, that could potentially do more damage. CIv4 would skip this and le you have your cake and eat it two.

Just a thought also in terms of usage. AT least in 3 the AI proved it was able to utilze the ablilty and the computer even let you hear the swosh of the blades comind down. Thats how I rember enemys droping from the sky. Anither methid would have to tryed tested and true.

What if the AI didn't want to go paratrooping always picking another promotion instead. brings us to a stacked paratrooper again if he leaves that particular upgrade to the last.

Sorry I havn't read everyones words in this thread so If I missed a explantion for my question I aploigize. Take care

Not realy the strongest points to support the tradintinal aproach but worth bringing up regardless.
Truly T.A

 

[Armorydave]

I voted no for both although I like the idea of a paratroop promotion. Gunships already represent attack helicopters and I just assume that infantry/marine/etc.. units come with transport helicopters that are not represented by the graphics. I really don't need transport helicopters as a seperate option.

I could live with paratroop units but fear they would be just another war tool that the AI can't use effectively. I can just see the stream of AI paratroopers dropping into my territory to pillage a farm before they are easily killed.

 

[Quagga]

AT least in 3 the AI proved it was able to utilze the ablilty and the computer even let you hear the swosh of the blades comind down. Thats how I rember enemys droping from the sky.

My Civ3 memory is of the AI making one-unit paratroop attacks. They were good for humor value but never caused any real trouble.

 

[T.A JONES]

My Civ3 memory is of the AI making one-unit paratroop attacks. They were good for humor value but never caused any real trouble.

Ya well I kind of agree. It really chocked me when the message actually came across the screen. I never thought they would have to annouce their arrival -kind of gives away the surprise....poor bums (kidding)

Still I made no secret, a mod I expierenced this on. Most Civ3 players use some type of mods today. (otherwise they don't no how good 3 really is and long since moved to CIv4!) but this one is The best of best in terms of 3rd expansion like play. I.E :loyal to original feel "the Balancer Reloaded". Exact same rules only expanded units lines and improvments etc. So pint being, This is where it happend. Not vannila Civ C

There was a wide varity of choppers for transport duties(more then any civ game in history) and god knows every chopper that was built by AI was deliveing troops at some point some where in a conflict, I dunno just happend I was there on one or two occasions). Catching them in the act wasn't that rare(I only played the mod twice cuz its a biggie n' takes up to a month, depending on session times, to finish a proper size world and full lot of CIvs 770 turns!). Mybe it was the selection the AI appreciated. (more chopper units with a wide varity of attack, defense ,and cost varaibles means better chance of catering to a AI' s quota in determing build selections)

Yes when it happens it rocks!. if they came at you all the time it would be less fun, besides paratroops didn't attack as much per say as regular infantry so the timing is realistic!)


I think the sightings are so low with vannila conquests in partucular because it tends to become boring at the last era and most don't finish or pay attention to see the paratroops come into play(based on rare usage compared to realistic attack alternatives). Still dosn't change the fact AI has recognition of the rules of paratrooper engagement, That not yet proven with the upgrade promation idea(still I like) This Makes Civ3 type' looking like more realistic oportunity to add these guy in/ better then the other, untried or yet to be proven UPGRADE method and especially when holding my other balancing reasons in to question. SAgain AUssie has a good idea though, theres no doubt on that. mybe time and test will tellweather we see the return. THis poll will catch Firaxis attention I bet

To catch my drift on bolded text heres a small taste of horse units Now imagine every other type of category(including choppers. Point being they may have hit the target for AI prefured usage as opposed to i'n game' chopper variables