Patriarchs and Popes

[Nikis-Knight]

Here's an idea I think could be quite neat. Religions in civs have holy cities, but not leaders. The Pope, or Patriarch, or Caliph in real life have often been distinct from the "Holy City" of a religion.

I think we could add this concept to give impetus to Fire coalitions, acting similar to the UN in modern vanilla civ (without a victory condition, though)

1. Start when a civ researches religious law, or maybe preisthood. This would start the process of choosing which civ (out of all of the civs that share that civ's state religion) gets the Patriarch (or religious head, probably with a special name for each). We could go different directions here, maybe even do each relgion differently.
-Elections, with each civ having votes related to the number to cites with this religion.
-Might require a wonder or ritual (Cannonical council or something)
-Randomly, or semi-randomly based on some factor, such as who has more ancient forrests, or who has moved the Armeggeddon Counter up or down the most, etc.

2. The civ selected would get the Patriarch unit, (one world unit for each religion). Basically a High Priest for that religion, but with str. of only 2 or 3. This may give diplo +/-'s, but most importantly, every 25? or so turns, the civ with the Patriarch would get to make a decree, such as:

-Cancel a previous decree (whether by you or previous player)

-Civilization X is a heretic. Choose a civilization with your state religion. All civs with your state religion would get a choice to declare war on this civ or face the same penalty as above. This would be in effect until the "heretic" civ is destroyed, converts away, or the decree is canceled.

-Call Holy War. Choose a religion. All civs with your state religion would get a choice to declare war on all civs of this religion. or face a penalty.

?-more?
3. There should be some ways to change ownership of the Patriarch. For one, when ever the unit is killed, a new civ of that faith will be chosen and get a new patriarch unit and the authority he brings. So if you don't like a rival's decrees, try to get an assassain in close (hence the str. 2 or 3)
Other ways? Maybe they have a small random chance to die of old age, or maybe someone else could build the ritual, Council of High priests, to choose a new Patriarch.

 

[loki1232]

This seems like an interesting idea.
I think that the pope should have a city auto-designated as an alternate holy city. It wouldn't give gold, but it still would give spy benefits.

Well one thing is that the summoners of Basium and Hyborem could automatically be the popes for their religions.

I'm not sure if I think that an actual Patriarch unit is necessary. Rather it could just be a diplomatic thing. And then like every 75 turns a vote would go out, and every civ with that religion would get to vote for a new patriarch. Note that preferably the vote would be between the civs of that religion with the high score.
But everything can always change. Such as for the AV, the new patriarch isn't voted on, but chosen by Hyborem.

And of course if one patriarch declares too many civs to be heretic, there is a chance of a schism. This would cause the excommunicated civs to select a leader, and one of his cities would be designated as an alternate religion center. Hmm. Now that I think about it, the various religious centers could actually be based on the temple upgrades. This could create a schism without a whole new religion, and one that could be reunited later (think teh anti-pope).
Perhaps the schismatic religions could be reunited if a different pope later renouned the excommunication, or if both of the faux holy cities were controlled by the same civ. The former would be a peaceful reconciliation with the religions staying separate, and the latter would be the extermination of one branch of the religion.

Another declaration could be to raise relations with a civ of your religion/

 

[Kael]

This is a great idea. When you consider their exact abilities try to scale their ability by the percentage of cities that hold their religion. It makes sense that the patriarch of a religion that is 90% present would be more powerful than one that is 20% present. That would also give the players additional incentive to spread their religions.

We may also want to consider having high priests promote into these positions. They would still be world unique (and liable to leave your civ for another, so there is some danger) but would an upgrade from a qualified high priest make mroe sense?

 

[loki1232]

I say that a highly quilified high priest could become a patriarch, perhaps as a way of keeping control of the papacy if your current pope dies.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

I'm not sure if I think that an actual Patriarch unit is necessary

Probably not, but I like the idea of having to watch for assassains.

I had thought of having it, say, choose randomly from all the priests/inqs/High priests of the religion in the world and promote one, and that civ gets the powers.

As for scaling abilities, I envision them simply as able to coerce like-faithed civs to join a war or embargo or such, so I don't know where the scaling goes. Perhaps AI civs could be influenced to go along if the patriarch civ is more exclusive to their religion, or such.

 

[loki1232]

We could have them get money from all members of thier organization. Like a holy city but not quite.

 

[Corlindale]

Very nice idea.

For me it would make most sense if the religious leader emerged in the Holy City and was controlled of the owner of that. Or at least let the owner of the HC get a greater chance of getting him/her.
A high level High Priest might get the option to upgrade(or Ascend, it sounds better) to the position Patriarch when in the Holy City of his religion, perhaps when certain other conditions are met. Perhaps even if you don't own the holy city but have Open Borders with the owner.
Then you get all the nice diplo options, scaling with how great the influence of the religion is. If the Patriarch dies - massive unhappiness for a few turns in cities of that State Rel. civ, and allow for a new Patriarch to Ascend.
Also, minor "God King" effect in whatever city the Patriarch is currently in. Gives the player an incentive to send him to border cities at risk to boost their military production, but provides great oppertunities for the would-be assasins of other civs.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

For me it would make most sense if the religious leader emerged in the Holy City and was controlled of the owner of that

A compromise could be that anyone who takes a Great prophet to a holy city of their state religion (after a certain point?) will get the option to promote it to a Patriarch unit.

But then the Holy City owner might just shut their borders (to maintain a monopoly on the leaders); could we make shrine income contingent on having open borders with other civs? i.e., you get one gold per city with your religion that you have open borders with, rather than every city withyour religion.

 

[wilboman]

Actually, that sounds like a good idea. I mean, shrine income is really pilgrimage income, isn't it? No pilgrims when the borders are closed.

 

[loki1232]

But then the Holy City owner might just shut their borders (to maintain a monopoly on the leaders); could we make shrine income contingent on having open borders with other civs? i.e., you get one gold per city with your religion that you have open borders with, rather than every city withyour religion.

I like this idea. And would make it harder for a civ to get lots of gold from their multiple holy cities.
Think the ottoman's trying to get lots of gold from christian pilgrimages to jerusalem.

 

[Kael]

I checked Patriarches into 0.21. The current mechanics are:

1. There are now 5 seperate high priest units, one for each religion. They will abandon you if you switch away from their religion.

2. Any High Priest can become the patriarch if he is higher level than all other high priests of his religion. If there is already a patriarch, that unit loses the patriarch promotion.

3. If the patriarch has 10 or more experience points he can declare a holy war. There are a few checks here to stop weird stuff, but basically every player that shares your state religion will declare war on anyone you are at war with and doesnt share your state religion. Doing so costs the patriarch 10 experience points.

4. Patriarchs get +2 strength over a normal high priest. I thought about making them old and frail, but I think I prefer having them able to throw down and do some damage. Besides they need to earn that xp somehow.

5. You get +4 in attitude from other players if you have the patriarch of their religion.

Id like to get a special spell for each patriarch, let me know what you guys think.

 

[loki1232]

Great!
Just some comments/Questions:
1. Could we make it so there are also unique inquisitors for each religion--and they too can become patriarchs? Or maybe there would be different inquisitor popes and priest popes.

2. Can we make it so that at a high enough arm counter there can be multiple popes? I'm thinking that past 50 there can be two different patriarchs owned by different civilizations, but the two civs will hate each other (and perhaps be albe to holy war each other)

3. Spells, yum.
Could some of the spells reduce XP, or would that be too hard for the Ai to understand?
And could some of them require a high armeggedon counter, or raise/lower teh counter?
ie: the AV patriarch can sacrifice cities he controls (prince of darkness) in order to get himself some XP, reduce city maintenance, and increase the arm counter.
The order patriarch doesn't get any special spells, but can declare a holy war losing only 5 XP and gets an extra 2 points of holy damage.
The Fellowship Patriarch is basically an uber druid. He can cast any nature spells (sorcery, summoning, or divine), and starts with a special ability to create an ancient forest (instead of a normal forest). Also maybe can summon unicorns? jk jk.
The RoK patriarch--what if he had a spell that lowered his XP some but created a metal resource for you?
OO, what fun. Summoning Cthulhu from the depts of the ocean? No seriously though a spell which "drowned" one of your living units-- +1 unholy strength, water walking, demon.

 

[Kael]

Calabim Patriarchs are unbeliveable.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

Cool!

I like restricting it to High priests, that keeps someone from gunning down all their enemies too early. But AI should be weighted towards the High priest granting tech a bit more so that players have some competition.

I think one or two other abilities each that use experience would be good, meaning if one player used the abilities too much, they had a higher risk of losing the title. Maybe some of the abilities could be tied to unit religioin promotions--like the "Drown anyone" spell Loki suggested might only work if the target unit (or target stack, to make it AI castable) had OO promotion.

If it is tied to a promotion, make sure that it is removed correctly when flesh golemed. Or... maybe the OO would follow a FG Patriarch?

Perhaps the Altar free XP should be lowered, but we can wait and see how it works with new tech requirements.

As an aside, would it be possible for shrines to increase the rate at which divine units gain xp, if they are in that city? So having the holy city would be a small advantage in gaining a patriarch.

The Fellowship Patriarch is basically an uber druid. He can cast any nature spells

Don't forget they'll keep their High Priest spells, so they already should be able too.

 

[loki1232]

Oh i forgot how good fellowship high priests were.

Maybe fellowship patriarch starts with forest invisibility and gets +1 poison strength?

 

[Kael]

Nikis-Knight, would you move this thread into the public forum please.

 

[marioflag]

This is really a wonderful idea which boosts differences between religions!
I would just give one suggestion if religion aspect would become more structured i think that conversion rules and religion spreading should also have a lot more parameters to take in account.
One thing which i have thought would be to introduce for example a tolerance slider toward unofficial religions.Tolerance slider choices should in any case be limited (if your religion is AV your tolerance choices toward Order should be really limited, same thing for the opposite).These tolerance slider should influence unoficcial religions spreading, happiness if there is unofficial religion in a city, diplomacy modifiers vs civs with other religions.The Pope should have a greater role about a religion tolerance slider.
About religion conversion i think that the 1 turn anarchy should be dropped in favor of something which is more complex, but at the same time AI friendly.

 

[BCalchet]

Oooh, shiny.

For those possible unique spells, I'd suggest some form of 'ritual' (thougt in no way related to the current rituals, so it'd need a new name) spells that require multiple casters:

Say, the Patriarch of Runes and two High Priests of Runes in a tile enables "Rite of Shaping", which will let the user change a tile to any of sea/flatland/hill/mountain, as desired.

The Patriarch of the Ashen Veil and twelve Savants in a tile enables "Rite of Desecration", killing all the savants while destroying a city one tile away, hellifying its tile and killing all defenders.

The Patriarch of the Order, two High Priests, and a Confessor might cast "Rite of Sacrifice", killing them all to emulate Corlindale's ability.

 

[Kael]

I do need 1 special spell for each patriarch.

@BCalchet- trying to get the ai to move the appropriate units together to cast those spells would be to hard.

 

[zyrev]

My dear grigorians will get the end of the pike...