PCGamer: "Civilization 7 senior historian prays it'll be a 'gateway drug' into textbooks", and physical PCGamer article

[The_J]

The whole title doesn't fit into the name of the thread, but it's "Civilization 7 senior historian prays it'll be a 'gateway drug' into textbooks: 'I teach undergraduates in my other life, and my God, man, they don't read'".
Our Firaxis forum resident @Andrew Johnson [FXS] told us about it, and he's also the name-giving historian.
For most of our other forum residents it's at least a well-known idea that Civ games can spark someone's interest in history. It seems that actual historians (even if employed by Firaxis) hope for the same, as apparently there is currently a trend to read less books which results in less knowledge, and maybe Civ7 can be again another trigger to be more interested in history.
Andrew also talks about how the game could lock you into a specific perspective, which Civ7 tries to avoid better, although heEDIT correction, not Andrew, but the article's author dislikes one of the very concepts necessary for games, the "winning" part, which doesn't exactly go well with history.
For more insights, please read the article here.

Our member @Isengardtom also pointed out that this month's PCGamer (the physical edition) has an article about Civ7 which is not yet online, but seems to be pretty positive. We're afraid that for now, to get all this spicy info, you'd have to buy the magazine, as only some sparse details are online.

 

[The_goggles_do_nothing]

I don't have time after work, family, playing civ, and gossiping about civ in civfanatics.

although he dislikes one of the very concepts necessary for games, the "winning" part, which doesn't exactly go well with history.

"winning" has certainly motivated men and women in history, and you can not really "win" history doesn't stop people from doing (stupid) things.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Agree. 'Winning" history usually amounts to surviving it.

But I can definitely relate to using games to teach or expose people to history. When we were home-schooling my stepson, I exposed him to ancient Egypt by having him play a few episodes of the game Pharaoh (some time ago: Ben is in his late thirties now!). That was the quickest way to teach him that people 4000 years removed were still people with many of the same needs and desires that we have.

 

[Isengardtom]

I don’t read many books I have to admit. But my favorite book in my possession is an Atlas of world history. I enjoy looking at the different maps and points of interests on them such as important cities and battles that took place.

It’s a nice book with on each page the map, a timeline what’s going on in the place it’s talking about as well as the rest of the world around the same time, some pics of artifacts and a lot of text.

I think for me history is what made me interested in Civ and visa vice versa Civ is making me interested again in history. Especially by introducing new civs and leaders

 

[Zaarin]

I don't have time after work, family, playing civ, and gossiping about civ in civfanatics.

Adulting and reading are not friends.

Agree. 'Winning" history usually amounts to surviving it.

Although I think there's some appeal to the old Mediterranean notion of winning history reflected in Hector's plea to accomplish "some great thing" that will be remembered, in the Egyptian monuments and mummification rites, in the Biblical injunction that the parents live on in their children, in Phoenician votives, in Mesopotamian victory stelae, etc.--that is, "winning history" is being remembered, whether publicly or privately.

 

[Evolena]

Although I think there's some appeal to the old Mediterranean notion of winning history reflected in Hector's plea to accomplish "some great thing" that will be remembered, [...]

Isn't that the Civ 7 main theme?

 

[Zaarin]

Isn't that the Civ 7 main theme?

Yes, that passage of the Iliad is quoted in the main theme, along with Beowulf and a few others. (I may not be overwhelmed with the theme itself, but I do like Tin's choice of quotations--or the choice of whoever passed them along to him as thematic.)

 

[Gori the Grey]

I teach undergraduates in my other life and, my God, man, they don't read

My guess is they're playing video games.

 

[Andrew Johnson [FXS]]

Hang on! The line about winning is this:

"To me, Firaxis' biggest historical problems come from the fact that Civ is a game you can win, meaning it presents history as something that can be won."

"Me" here is Tyler, the article's author!

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

In military history, at least, I always thought the most applicable quote about 'winning' was from the Duke of Wellington:

"Next to a battle lost, the greatest tragedy is a battle won."

 

[Andrew Johnson [FXS]]

As for my take on victory, I am OK with it. I like to think of games vs simulations. A game has equal starting conditions and a victory; a simulation seeks to adhere to historical conditions and, well, simulate them. If I play [ANOTHER STUDIO’S GAME], I imagine victory conditions for myself when I start (and they change over time). If I play Civ or [ANOTHER], I have victory neatly laid out. They’re different experiences.

Civ isn’t a simulation. I want accuracy in the ways that we can get it, and it’s cool when it parallels history, but for me I want resonance, not replay, if that makes sense. Mostly, like the article says, I want the audience to get to know and love these places and times and, if they want “real” history, to go and read or visit or something like this.

 

[Uberfrog]

The series certainly ignited my interest in history as a teenager!

Civ 4 was my introduction to the Ottoman and Khmer Empires, Civ 5 introduced me to Ramkhamhaeng and Kamehameha. Civ 6 taught me about Mvemba Nzinga and Ludwig II.

Civ 7 isn’t even out yet but I look forward to finding out more about Amina and Buganda.

 

[The_J]

Hang on! The line about winning is this:

"To me, Firaxis' biggest historical problems come from the fact that Civ is a game you can win, meaning it presents history as something that can be won."

"Me" here is Tyler, the article's author!

Ooops, sorry, didn't read this right, I corrected it.

Maybe this article https://slate.com/life/2025/01/reading-decline-books-new-years-resolution.html is something for you though .
Although I'm here also totally with @The_goggles_do_nothing . My life is very busy, and I'm reading already a ton for work... I don't have time otherwise :/.

 

[Zaarin]

The series certainly ignited my interest in history as a teenager!

I was always interested in history because I loved reading from a very, very young age (literature is still my first love), but games like Age of Kings and Civilization introduced me to a lot of cool things that weren't in my textbooks.

 

[chaosprophet]

"Me" here is Tyler, the article's author!

Wait, I understand it now! So you're the article author, and you made the article as if it was someone interview you, but actually is just you asking and answering the questions yourself!? That way you may not have won history but instead won journalism!?

 

[Thenewwwguy]

what he brings up here is pretty interesting. back in the day when i applied to uni, i wrote my common app essay on how civ *was* a gateway drug for my interest in history, and that a gateway drug for my interest in political science. i’m sure it’ll work.

 

[Andrew Johnson [FXS]]

I’m cheating, because reading is work, but I always have a few things running:

Audiobook 1: popular history (often Civ related so I won’t say titles yet). For when I walk in the morning.
Audiobook 2: big novel I want to read (Thomas Pynchon’s Against the Day right now). For when I cook or walk in the evening.
Audiobook 3: genre fiction as I’m trying to sleep (William Gibson’s Sprawl trilogy right now)
Books for class (about 1/week - Lila Abu-Lughod right now)
Books for my own work (slowly, often don’t finish if I decide it’s not relevant - Susan Buck-Morss on Walter Benjamin’s Arcades project right now)
Book in Thai to keep my language up (not good about this, Sunthorn Phu’s Journey to Phetburi right now)

 

[Zaarin]

That was me up through college; since then I've become a much slower, more deliberate reader. If I'm reading more than one thing at once, it's a non-fiction book plus a fiction book (currently Phoenicians and the Making of the Mediterranean and Ursula K. Le Guin's The Other Wind, respectively).

 

[Gori the Grey]

Funny thing: "Gateway Drug into Textbooks" was the name of the Rush cover band I played in in college.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I’m cheating, because reading is work, but I always have a few things running:

Audiobook 1: popular history (often Civ related so I won’t say titles yet). For when I walk in the morning.
Audiobook 2: big novel I want to read (Thomas Pynchon’s Against the Day right now). For when I cook or walk in the evening.
Audiobook 3: genre fiction as I’m trying to sleep (William Gibson’s Sprawl trilogy right now)
Books for class (about 1/week - Lila Abu-Lughod right now)
Books for my own work (slowly, often don’t finish if I decide it’s not relevant - Susan Buck-Morss on Walter Benjamin’s Arcades project right now)
Book in Thai to keep my language up (not good about this, Sunthorn Phu’s Journey to Phetburi right now)

When it comes to reading/not reading, I'm one of the Old Fogie Throwbacks: reading all the time.

Because there isn't any more wall space for bookshelves, all my fiction reading any more is e-books which don't require any ((physical) storage space. Right now, that's two series I'm re-reading: P. D. James' Dagliesh mystery series and Robb's Owen Archer medieval mysteries.

I indulged myself shamelessly for Christmas and bought myself several new hardbacks:
William Taylor's Hoof Beats - his reconstruction of the domestication of horses, complete with 50 pages of notes and citations.
Ramie Targoff"s Shakespeare's Sisters - on the female contemporaries of Shakespeare writing plays, poetry and prose
Dan Jones' Henry V - the latest of a series of recent British medieval biographies and histories

And then, of course, there's my 'reading' for my writing, which right now consists of translating a bunch of Soviet archive documents from Western Front, 33rd and 43rd Armies in front of Moscow in late October and a bunch of German status reports from units in Army Group Center in late October and November. Not exactly material for the NYT Best Seller List, but so far nobody else seems to have incorporated any of this primary material into English language histories, so potential Gold.

One of our cats has learned that when I'm head down in a book or e-reader, the only way to get my attention is to sink a set of claws into my arm or butt - works every time, but thankfully he hasn't taught the other cats or my wife about it . . .