Peloponnesian War Scenario Development Thread

[Kryten]

Originally posted by Amenhotep7
Thnx so much, Kryten! It seems u have been a very busy Kryten! I'm tweaking the map as I speak...(Or type? ) I'll need the Epheboi Corps unit from u and also...Does anyone know appropriate techs for the era, or should I set the tech rate so obscenely high that none could research it in 324 turns?

If I took on another unit creation job at this stage then Xen and Louis XXIV would lynch me!
However, as it is only a shield and helmet change, I'll see what I can do....but I must finish a 'couple' of other units first.
(Just don't tell anyone...... )

By the way, Aristotle says that the epheboi (which means 'conscripts') would be called up at 18, and issued with spears and shields by the state. For one year they would be garrisoned in the port of Piraios, training with hoplite tactics, bows, javelins, and catapults. In the second year they would be sent to garrison the border forts and trained in route marches. After this they were released back into the population and so formed the Athenian equivalent of the modern 'terriorial army' or 'national guardsmen'.
In other words, the Epheboi Corps was a military training school for young Athenians going through their period of 'national service', and was some 800 strong in this period (i.e. 400 serving their 1st year, and another 400 in their 2nd year).

As for techs in the scenario, most of them will already available at the scenario start, such as archers, javelinmen ( ), horseman, ships, city walls, embassies, right-of-passage agreements, drafting units, embargoes, mutual protection pacts, and so on.
Nonetheless, I still think that it would be a good idea to have a limited tech tree for other city improvments, small wonders and world wonders, as that adds another dimension to decision making for the player. Why not include some of the later improvements with new name as well, such as "Workshops" (a renamed Factory) and "School of Philosophy" (a renamed University) for example?
Oh, and it might be a good idea to add a high level of 'war weariness' to all governments in the scenario, just to emphasise the sheer exahustion of 27 years of war, where some of the soldiers at the end were not even born at the wars start!

And now for a very silly question: please forgive me for asking, but do you possess a copy of "The Peloponnesian War" by Thucydides? (available in paperback from the Penguin Classics).
It is a heavy read, and sometimes difficult to see the wood for the trees, but it is virtually IMPOSSIBLE to create a scenario of this kind without it.
You really MUST get a copy, if you haven't already that is.

 

[Xen]

you already have a nice Athenian Hopite with a black shield, and the owl, a symbol of Athena on him- all he needs is a cloak to amke him elite...the uncloaked version can be used stad alone for trainess (the first year "ephebes"/epheboi perhaps?)

I forget hwere I got that the epheboi were the Athenia elite...but considerign that they would have included the cities richest citizens, I think ti could count as it any way (there are several sources online, one of which i remember/have a book mark to that says that about the rich guys in the epheboi...)

edit- and your right, I ould lynch you for delaying that special unit -done by monday my arse!

 

[Amenhotep7]

Unfortunately I posses no book of this kind. I'll go to the library to see what I can do. About the techs, what exactly will they be called? Will they be called Horseman, Phalanx, etc, or will it be more like Batle Tactics, Phalanx, Siege, Horseback Riding, etc.? I'll add resources to the map and add new resources like marble and copper. I just have one problem w/ making new improvemwnts...It's hard to get the appear on the Aerial View Screen! I'll also increase the war weariness on all govts. (I'll create oligarchy govt. for sparta, too...) Most of these chnges will be made later 2day.

 

[Xen]

I like that tactics idea... new tactics can bring about new troops

for example-
Skirmishing- brings about the peltast unit... although it might be best to leave units like the hoplite, peltast, and cavalry as basic units, and work up... if there was a skythian mercenary horse archer (no Kryten, dont do it! you have a cataphract, a hoplite, and gods know what esle, so get back to work now! )

 

[Kryten]

Originally posted by Xen
... if there was a skythian mercenary horse archer (no Kryten, dont do it! you have a cataphract, a hoplite, and gods know what esle, so get back to work now! )

But it would be so quick to place the Civ3 Archer's head on top of the Iroquois Mounted Warrior!
But you are quite right....yes master, I AM working hard, please don't whip me!

Originally posted by Xen
you already have a nice Athenian Hopite with a black shield, and the owl, a symbol of Athena on him- all he needs is a cloak to amke him elite...

I haven't made a Hoplite shield with an Owl.
(I did make a "Subjugated Hoplite" with a black shield and a civ coloured GOBLET or CUP on it....which just goes to show how bad an animator I am if it looks like an owl! )
Still, it wouldn't be hard to make a new shield, if I can get permission that is.....

 

[Xen]

Originally posted by Kryten

I haven't made a Hoplite shield with an Owl.
(I did make a "Subjugated Hoplite" with a black shield and a civ coloured GOBLET or CUP on it....which just goes to show how bad an animator I am if it looks like an owl! )
Still, it wouldn't be hard to make a new shield, if I can get permission that is.....
QUOTE]


by all means make the Epheboi! (I've been asking you for it anyway for a while now anyway )

but look at your MULTI units second linne hoplite, I belive there si a hoplite matching the description there...

 

[Amenhotep7]

You hear that, Kryten? Ur master gives you permission to work on the Epheboi hoplite I'll need a list of techs...We should start makin 'em. I say for the 'Ancient' Era( I'll rename em later)
Tactics
Skirmishing
Broze Working
Iron Working
Phalanx
Domestication
Horseback Riding
Mathematics
Siege
<Insert More Here>

 

[Kryten]

Originally posted by Xen
but look at your MULTI units second line hoplite, I belive there is a hoplite matching the description there...

Oh, THAT old thing.

Well, the front line is: a blue shield with a black 'snake', a bronze shield with a white 'eye', and another blue shield with a red 'trident'.
The rear line has: a bronze shield with a yellow 'letter A' (for Argos), a bronze shield with a black 'club', and lastly a plane silver shield with no emblem.

Still......
"Leave it with me"

 

[Amenhotep7]

*Twiddling thumbs

 

[Xen]

Originally posted by Kryten


Oh, THAT old thing.

Well, the front line is: a blue shield with a black 'snake', a bronze shield with a white 'eye', and another blue shield with a red 'trident'.
The rear line has: a bronze shield with a yellow 'letter A' (for Argos), a bronze shield with a black 'club', and lastly a plane silver shield with no emblem.

Still......
"Leave it with me"

I guess I associated the 'A' with Athens, and I associate Athens with Athena...who is assocated with the owl...

but in other wors...you have a hoplite for ever greek sate OTHER then the most important one?

-pause-

 

[Patroklos]

Kryten, have the units of the multi-unit been released as indivifual units?

 

[Xen]

no, they havent, I know that much about all them - I make it a buisness to know exactley what units kryten has FINISHED, and what he hasnt yet *cough*roman cataphract*couch*

 

[Xen]

Originally posted by Amenhotep7
You hear that, Kryten? Ur master gives you permission to work on the Epheboi hoplite I'll need a list of techs...We should start makin 'em. I say for the 'Ancient' Era( I'll rename em later)
Tactics
Skirmishing
Broze Working
Iron Working
Phalanx
Domestication
Horseback Riding
Mathematics
Siege
<Insert More Here>

well, the thing is, by the peloponesian war, most of the techs involed were compleated- there was no great innovations in tech, though there a gret many in tactical advances...


I think techs should be handeld like this...

tactical kinds, that offer new units as a "reward"

example-

skirmishing-Peltast, an upgade of the archer

phalanx sub stubstucture (the more advanced phalanx perfected by the greeks, making them the kasters of the formation, till the Roman - the lesser of the main nations hoplites- like the Athenian ephebes...

Acadamia milillarii (but lets use Greek instead of Latin if we can - the high leval hoplite/other primere unit for the armies
, like the Athenian Epheboi corps


-------------

then "event techs", like the deveolpment of politicval satires in the middle of the war, like the many works of Aristophanes...

Political satires- can we give a happyness bonus for techs? perhaps lower war wearyness, or if we have to, we can associaste a building/ wonder with it, so after you build that (lets sat a theter in this case) it has the desired effect...

and then, of course, with c3c, we can have civ indipendent tech trees... I think three tirs, one basi one for the majority of the civ city states so the computer has somthing to munch on, and an indipendent Sparta, and Athenian tech trees... it woul dmake things EASYER for all the techs, as we wouldnt have to generalize everything into what most/every nation accomplished during that time...

 

[Xen]

Originally posted by Kryten


Oh, THAT old thing.

Well, the front line is: a blue shield with a black 'snake', a bronze shield with a white 'eye', and another blue shield with a red 'trident'.
The rear line has: a bronze shield with a yellow 'letter A' (for Argos), a bronze shield with a black 'club', and lastly a plane silver shield with no emblem.

Still......
"Leave it with me"

oh, and the symbol of Argos was the Hydra

but that brings me to a new point, troops

for obvious reasons, there are four types of troops in the scenario

-Ships

-Infantry(medium, and heavey)

-Skirmishers/light infantry

-Cavalry

thsi is how, in my opinion, the units should go...

Skirmishers
Archers-Peltasts-more advanced peltast ORa greek swoardsman

Infantry
(core troops)standard civ3 hoplite- unique national hoplite1 (ephebe)- second, elite unique hoplite (Epheboii)

that is of course only for nations like Athens, and Sparta, most nation will get stuck with "generic" upgrades used for all other nations...

cavalry
light horse (more or less standard civ3 horseman)-late mid game compainon cavalry of Alexander the great type cavalry- tarentine type cavalry (the best, because they used sheilds in addition to fair body armour)

ships
during the period, the main type of ship was the trireme, sop that dosent leave a great deal of room to manuver in really...

standard civ3 galley-one of Krytens triemes- Aaglos Trireme

we can justify advandvences by differng hull constructions, such as the Aphracact ( non coverd deck), and cataphract (covered deck) building techniquest... aaglos animation maens a new ram building techniques tech can be used in game to switch over to it...

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now then, on to other buisness gentlemen

the buisness of the starring nations troops that is!

this scenario is obviouslly a GREAT precursor to the Alexander the great scen by Kryten, which is why I think it could/should be expanded into the rise of macedon period as well...

but thats a differn topic

heres my idea-

Athens special troops (epheboi corps)- have marine ability, and health bonus

Spatan special troops- extra attack and health

Theban- extra defenceand health

 

[Patroklos]

Where can I find that multiunit, and wouldn't all the individual units have to be made already to put them into a multi-unit. Each would have to have a death, default, attack, and fidget animation in the multi-unit itself.

 

[Xen]

yes, but arnt relesed individually- just look under multi units...

 

[Amenhotep7]

all right, I'll add units when all or most of them are obtainable...(Kryten, work faster! )

 

[Xen]

dont rush him TOO much, we dont want crappy jobs now... Kryten has an important engagement with the late roman cataphract

 

[Amenhotep7]

cataphract is gonna become a swear word if you say it every other thread ur in!

I was thinking about that.

P.S. Before I can add oligarchy, what should stats be??? (Remember to take into account that I'm adding one war weariness)

 

[Xen]

I said awile ago in chat if the mods put hot sauce on thire hotdogs, along with other garneshes I wouldnt say the word "cataphract" for a week - they never took me up on it though...

any way. I didnt get to post all my ideas- the period I was in eneded before I could (yes, i was bad and "skipped" my class to go into a friendlly teachers room and play on the computers )

anyway. I left off at the Theban hoplite...

some of the indipendent states warrent a special unit as well- but obviouslly they dont take presendence to what the main civs have to offer...

Macedonia- these guys should be week in the beginning of the game, and shoul donly have basic hoplites with no upgrages- eventaully in the later part of the game, they should gain access to an assortment of good quality, medium cost troops- cheeper the there main Greek counter part units...

persia need to be handeld carefully- it needs units differnt from the greek in ALL respects, save mercenary hoplites, a medium unit everybody can employ...

Thessaly- I still think thi splace should be a main indipendent area (not nuetral, they allied with Athens), but they should have some sort of cavalryman better then other greeks...