Peter Minuit is the Best Founding Father

[misterslack]

Peter Minuit: -25% cost of recruiting units in Europe

Whoever gets this guy has an overwhelming advantage over the opposition. The key to understanding his power is that the only thing you spend your gold on are..units! His discount applies to both on-the-docks colonists, fixed-price trained specialists, as well as ships and cannons. A player almost never spends any money on commodities except for the a few horses, guns, or tools early in the game. Petey's advantage is essentially 33% more gold generated. At the end of the game when you're ramping up to the war of independence, the most efficient way to get more raw colonists is to buy the $800 (now $600!) trained specialists like ore miners and lumberjacks, and train/equip them to be soldiers. This is more efficient than farming food to grow your own new colonists, at least until the tax rate becomes prohibitive. Get an early statesmen running to pick him up before your rivals do and reap the immense benefits.

 

[1EyedKing]

He's really unbalanced when playing with the Spanish.

I just went berserk with Jose de San Martin and completely obliterated every indian civilization in my continent, fetched myself a pretty Galleon, got Peter Minuit as a FF, and sent all the treasure back to Europe earning more than 20000 doubloons. By mid 17th century I had an army consisting of about half (!!!) the entire REF, and heavily promoted to boot.

 

[werdfox]

Yeah, he helps a lot.

What's your opinion on the other founding fathers?

 

[Ellestar]

I agree, Peter Minuit was the only one i really wanted to get and i got him as my first Founding Father in my first game Some others are ok too, but they aren't as good as this one. Nothing else gives such a serious scaling bonus - gold multiplier.

 

[ButSam]

I don't know about the rest of you, but I didn't realize for the longest time (about 1/3 of my first game) that the founding fathers screen actually scrolls There are a lot of really good ones. I do like Minuit, but I don't consider his talents game-breaking; some others give 2-3 free units, which is about what you could probably buy with the savings. Is he one of the better? Definitely. Hands-down the best? No. It depends on the game circumstances and who you are. Gaining 50% bonus to missions and free missionaries could be better if you are the French guy who has great native relations already (don't recall his name); you effectively get roughly the same # of free units from a single mission as you could purchase extra using Minuit, and you can establish multiple missions.

Don't get me wrong -- Minuit is certainly on the short list of desirable guys to get, but I think you have to look at what is synergistic with your goals and then decide who is best.

 

[misterslack]

I don't know about the rest of you, but I didn't realize for the longest time (about 1/3 of my first game) that the founding fathers screen actually scrolls There are a lot of really good ones. I do like Minuit, but I don't consider his talents game-breaking; some others give 2-3 free units, which is about what you could probably buy with the savings. Is he one of the better? Definitely. Hands-down the best? No. It depends on the game circumstances and who you are. Gaining 50% bonus to missions and free missionaries could be better if you are the French guy who has great native relations already (don't recall his name); you effectively get roughly the same # of free units from a single mission as you could purchase extra using Minuit, and you can establish multiple missions.

Don't get me wrong -- Minuit is certainly on the short list of desirable guys to get, but I think you have to look at what is synergistic with your goals and then decide who is best.

Three extra units or 50% native conversion are nowhere near as valuble as 33% more units from gold. Just to give an example from my current game, my six settlements have about 16 colonists each, and at least twelve of those sixteen were trained from Europe (the rest are native conversions or homegrown). Doing the math, the money spent training those 12 * 6 = 72 total units would have only bought 72 * .75 = 54 units without Minuit. He gave me 72 - 54 = 18 extra units. No other founding father comes close.

 

[Gliese 581]

How often do you get converts from missions? Are this displayed in-game? Are several multipliers multiplied or added (french + FF for example)? Would need to know that to compare a 50% bonus to Minuits 25% cost reduction.

 

[Common Sensei]

Peter Minuit was one of the best ones in the original Colonization too, as I recall, but for different reasons.

 

[pvt chaos]

How often do you get converts from missions? Are this displayed in-game? Are several multipliers multiplied or added (french + FF for example)? Would need to know that to compare a 50% bonus to Minuits 25% cost reduction.

I got the feeling that the converts diminish over time, like the first one takes x turns and the 2nd one x turns plus a increasing %. The Minuits bonus is always the same, so thats already an advantage.

 

[dr_AllCOM3]

almost everything diminishes. converts, immigrants, learning from natives, teaching, generals.

 

[Gliese 581]

almost everything diminishes. converts, immigrants, learning from natives, teaching, generals.

Sounds like the overarching strategy for the game will be about balancing power of diversity (due to diminishing returns on any one method) with power of specialization (cheaper and faster to establish high level of output).

 

[ButSam]

Three extra units or 50% native conversion are nowhere near as valuble as 33% more units from gold. Just to give an example from my current game, my six settlements have about 16 colonists each, and at least twelve of those sixteen were trained from Europe (the rest are native conversions or homegrown). Doing the math, the money spent training those 12 * 6 = 72 total units would have only bought 72 * .75 = 54 units without Minuit. He gave me 72 - 54 = 18 extra units. No other founding father comes close.

I agree Minuit is powerful, but there is a deep flaw in this logic, and I still don't think he is the best in any game. You are assuming all units purchased cost the same. I suspect the real number of free units is much lower, and playing as the Frenchman with already good Native conversions from missions, 3 free Jesuit Missionaries early could rival Minuit; and later you can add on bonuses to missions above and beyond that. Additionally, with Minuit, you spend more resources on unit purchases than one would otherwise with native conversions. So, is he one of the top-tier? Definitely. Are others at least as powerful in certain game situations? I certainly believe so. Minuit is probably the top-tier guy who is the most straightforward to use and most accessible, though -- I will certainly give you that.

 

[1EyedKing]

Is he one of the better? Definitely. Hands-down the best? No. It depends on the game circumstances and who you are.

So, is he one of the top-tier? Definitely. Are others at least as powerful in certain game situations? I certainly believe so.

Hmm. Same format, same answer.

Draw another argument.

 

[ddd123]

well i tried playing a religion game
in that case i found myself buying very few men in europe, just the few i really really needed
still havent perfected that strat, dunno if its worth the others but the idea is youll end up with a TONS of men waiting for you in europe, i just couldnt even carry them all

still the FF is not bad, you have cash and you want to spend it, but its surely less needed

probably i should try such a game with a minimum commerce, trying to avoid many goods and focus on expanding since i dont need much money

 

[misterslack]

I agree Minuit is powerful, but there is a deep flaw in this logic, and I still don't think he is the best in any game. You are assuming all units purchased cost the same.

Units having different costs is irrelevant. You spend X gold on units with varied prices throughout the game; with Minuit you would effectively have 33% more gold to spend, yielding 33% more units. The fact that they cost different amounts doesn't matter: the units constituting that extra 33% will have the same average price as the other 66%. For example, let's say I have Minuit and purchase (These aren't real the prices, just an example):

10 expert ore miners costing 600 each
10 master blacksmiths 900 each
10 master gunsmiths costing 1200 each
10 elder statesmen costing 1500 each

Total gold spent = 6000+9000+12000+15000 = 42000. Without Minuit the costs would increase by 33% on each unit, and I'd only be able to buy 6.67 of each unit for the same gold. I'd still have to buy 10 of each unit without Minuit (the squares that need working don't change), but I'd have to spend more gold.

I suspect the real number of free units is much lower, and playing as the Frenchman with already good Native conversions from missions, 3 free Jesuit Missionaries early could rival Minuit; and later you can add on bonuses to missions above and beyond that. Additionally, with Minuit, you spend more resources on unit purchases than one would otherwise with native conversions.

Native conversions are nice, but relying on them for the bulk of your workforce is a (imho) weak strategy. There are several reasons why:

- They don't come fast enough, even with lots of French Jesuit missions boosted by religious founding fathers (I had three Jesuit missions set up since the beginning in the game I mentioned as well as most of the religious FF's and maybe 15% of my workforce was native)
- They are worse than European trained specialists in field work
- They are completely useless for any "left-screen" manufacturing jobs, which constitute 40-50% of your workforce

Natives simply cannot run your economy; they are a nice bonus but you are forced to purchase large numbers of trained specialists every single game. Educating natives is not an option due to the severe diminishing returns on education points.

 

[Gliese 581]

misterslack: What about setting up missions in native villages that train a skill you want alot of, like farmer/fisherman/trapper etc? Then you can just train them right away as they're born to become specialists.

 

[ddd123]

Natives simply cannot run your economy; they are a nice bonus but you are forced to purchase large numbers of trained specialists every single game. Educating natives is not an option due to the severe diminishing returns on education points.

im sure you are wrong in here
the first trainings are VERY fast, and afaik the training DR is different for each native town

that means you can train 4 5 fisherman fast on a town then another 4 5 farmer etc

and in a normal game you need only many fisherman and farmers and some miner, usually the rest are less important

its usually good to build half town with food based on farms instead of all on water, imo

the only game i ended with natives with an impossible time to train fisherman i had like all town with 3 4 square of water, couldnt really train them all at the end i had to buy some

i found training very useful and the best way to get the easy workers done, since i have to spend a lot on armorers/blacksmithers etc

 

[misterslack]

misterslack: What about setting up missions in native villages that train a skill you want alot of, like farmer/fisherman/trapper etc? Then you can just train them right away as they're born to become specialists.

I think this would work very well if you have a good selection of different skill-teaching native villages. However, which villages teach which skills is random. You're pretty much guaranteed to have farmer and fisherman nearby, but the rest may or may not match what you need. Ore miner villages seem particularly rare.

im sure you are wrong in here
the first trainings are VERY fast, and afaik the training DR is different for each native town

When I said "education" I was referring to training colonists in your own cities through schools/colleges/universities, not training in native villages. I don't think native village training has diminishing returns, but I could be wrong. Regardless it's very useful throughout the game, but it won't cover all your needs, particularly the "left-screen" manufacturing jobs .

and in a normal game you need only many fisherman and farmers and some miner, usually the rest are less important

I disagree, I think the most important colonists are carpenters, blacksmiths, gunsmiths, and cash-crop processors (distillers, weavers, tobacconists), and of course statesmen late-game. Ore miners are somewhat important, but food and lumber specialists are not needed until your cities start getting big and you need multiple carpenters to build the expensive buildings.

Look I'm not saying native converts or using native villages are a bad thing, they're certainly useful, but you *need* to buy lots of specialists from Europe to win this game and Minuit gives you a massive boost in this area.

 

[ddd123]

When I said "education" I was referring to training colonists in your own cities through schools/colleges/universities, not training in native villages. I don't think native village training has diminishing returns,

yes they have, but as i said its inside the town, surely not shared with other professions, thats very good for first tier specialists

but I could be wrong. Regardless it's very useful throughout the game, but it won't cover all your needs, particularly the "left-screen" manufacturing jobs .

yeah ofc

I disagree, I think the most important colonists are carpenters, blacksmiths, gunsmiths, and cash-crop processors (distillers, weavers, tobacconists), and of course statesmen late-game. Ore miners are somewhat important, but food and lumber specialists are not needed until your cities start getting big and you need multiple carpenters to build the expensive buildings.

well i admit im still learning the game so i dont have a superb strat yet
but i dont understand how to use very well blacksmith and carpenters at the start, they require a lot of additional workforce like raw mats and food in the town, all waste

dunno maybe im wrong but if i have to put 3 fisher/farmer in a town i rather use the surplus food to generate fast support than to "waste" the food to feed the blacksmith and the carpenter and the woodcutter, in fact i usually start buyng/training them around half game and i only get those free in the early game (or buy a couple if im not lucky)

Look I'm not saying native converts or using native villages are a bad thing, they're certainly useful, but you *need* to buy lots of specialists from Europe to win this game and Minuit gives you a massive boost in this area.

well i was specifically try to get a leader with good native bonuses and get other FF to support the strategy, i got both the 50% speed increased and the 25 % later
(the 3 missionaries i dont think its that good, i found it decent at start but if i have to rush i rather take the 75% conversion , missionaries are very cheap)

btw im not saying its a winning strat, but in my best game i had like 10 missionaries and at the end they was a good bonus in the middle game when you usually spend lot of money on expensive specialists

 

[Roller123]

I dont understand why this FF guy is good. Base unit costs increase. So we are not getting 25% more units but only a few more.

Total gold spent = 6000+9000+12000+15000 = 42000. Without Minuit the costs would increase by 33% on each unit, and I'd only be able to buy 6.67 of each unit for the same gold.

I dont understand why the 33% instead of 25%, but regardless, one lategame unit=multiple earlygame units, eating up that bonus for them. Lets follow that example.

33% discount:
6k+9k+12k+15k+18k+21k+24k+27k+30k+33k = 195K for 100units
No discount:
8k+12k+16k+20k+24k+28k+32k+36k+ 5*4000= 196K for 85 units

15 more units, not 33. Difference will only decrease with more purchased units. (to zero)