[R&F] Pingala vs Magnus

[Jarhead60]

You can only have one in a city. So when it comes time for space race projects which is better? Pingala' discount or Magnus 100% yield??

 

[Bad Wolf]

In my science victory I found it was better to have Pingala than Magnus. Of course, having them both is ideal, then you can work on two space race projects at once. The real value of Magnus at this point comes from Vertical Integration though, not the 100% chop bonus; odds are you've already chopped most of the choppable trees by the time you're building a spaceship.

 

[Jarhead60]

In my science victory I found it was better to have Pingala than Magnus. Of course, having them both is ideal, then you can work on two space race projects at once. The real value of Magnus at this point comes from Vertical Integration though, not the 100% chop bonus; odds are you've already chopped most of the choppable trees by the time you're building a spaceship.

Yeah, I forgot about vertical integration. If you have properly spaced your industrial zones that is really strong. If I have two decent production cities I have run one in each city working on projects.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Yeah, I forgot about vertical integration. If you have properly spaced your industrial zones that is really strong. If I have two decent production cities I have run one in each city working on projects.

I'm probably doing it wrong, but by the time I'm at that point in the game I'm waiting on teching to the next project, not the production. For me I've been better better off with one spaceport and running Campus project in other cities. I'd be open to suggestions to improve that.

 

[Bad Wolf]

Yeah I built a buttload of factories and power plants in the core of my empire precisely to take advantage of Vertical Integration (which is so, so good - that plus the chop boost make Magnus indispensable for any victory type), and even then I found that Pingala gave more of a boost to space race projects: +30% is a lot when he's placed in your highest production city.

 

[Boyan_Sun]

In the most economical and efficient way, these two governors won't conflict, and you only need to buy 1 spaceport surrounded by 4~6 trees. First few turns you used Pingala - Royal Society combo to speed up space projects, with +15% policy and +30% from Pingala, you only need 4 full charged builders and 4 turns for each project. 5 turns before the last space tech completed, you need to switch to Magnus, and continue to sacrifice builders. Finally when last tech is OK, chop to complete the remaining projects immediately in the same turn. With Magnus and +15% policy you only need 4~5 trees for each project.
If you really have to make choice, Magnus - trees may be better, because 100% is always better than 30% (actually that 100% is MAD, balance collapsed). Pingala only can save 1 turn and 1 builder with Royal Society.
Believe me, Vertical integration is useless. In current version I suggests that you forget about the production output of the city itself, which is nothing compared to chopping with Magnus.

 

[Jarhead60]

In the most economical and efficient way, these two governors won't conflict, and you only need to buy 1 spaceport surrounded by 4~6 trees. First few turns you used Pingala - Royal Society combo to speed up space projects, with +15% policy and +30% from Pingala, you only need 4 full charged builders and 4 turns for each project. 5 turns before the last space tech completed, you need to switch to Magnus, and continue to sacrifice builders. Finally when last tech is OK, chop to complete the remaining projects immediately in the same turn. With Magnus and +15% policy you only need 4~5 trees for each project.
If you really have to make choice, Magnus - trees may be better, because 100% is always better than 30% (actually that 100% is MAD, balance collapsed). Pingala only can save 1 turn and 1 builder with Royal Society.
Believe me, Vertical integration is useless. In current version I suggests that you forget about the production output of the city itself, which is nothing compared to chopping with Magnus.

But if you are going to use Magnus then having him promoted up to vertical integration definitely helps because you are getting the production from nearby factories added to those chops so Vertical Integration still helps.

 

[Softly]

Vertical Integration can be incredibly powerful in the hands of civs like Germany or Scotland who have incentive to build Industrial Zones even when overlapping, otherwise it is not that great since overlapping factories almost never pay for themselves in time. I just finished a game as Scotland where I had a city covered by 6 factories. I had Mausoleum and James Watt so each one of those factories was giving me +7 production (that's before counting the 3-4 power plants I had). I had Ruhr (+20%), Ecstatic (+20% as Scotland) and declared a Liberation War (+100%) so I got this city to 400+ production which was pretty insane.

 

[Victoria]

There are 2 ways of producing space projects, standard production amd chop/builder spend. The chop/builder spend is faster unless you can get a city over 200 prod per turn, and even then....
A late Magnus chop is worth 4/5 of a builder spend.
No one mentioned Reyna in this? I guess she may have her own thread.

Last game I had Liang in a nearby city where I purchased builders as needed, she is worth a mention.

 

[Boyan_Sun]

added to those chops

Assume you have 6 super factories around, so it is just adding 6 * 7 * (1+100%+20%+20%) = 100.8 extra prod per turn, and for that 6 factories you must pay 6 * (195 + 390 + cost of IZ) prod and 6 district places, and Mausoleum - James Watt combo which may depend on luck.
Comparing to chop/builder: when you have done the last several techs, the chop value of each tree is 370+ with Magnus, a full charged builder's value is 1800 * 3% * 7 * (1+15%) = 434.7 per turn if you have Liang and Pyramid.

Is it really worth the ultimate promotion? I personally think not, for these simple calculations above.

No one mentioned Reyna in this?

Actually I mentioned her implicitly: "need to buy 1 spaceport". The price can be expensive, but it's always faster if you have enough money.

standard production amd chop/builder spend.

I think the standard production is unstable, vulnerable to espionage. Slowness can cause a lot of problems, such as being targeted by the whole world. But it is more real.

 

[Victoria]

The price can be expensive, but it's always faster if you have enough money.

So... you said 15% also meaning you have a military academy? I built Big Ben last game, I still am wondering if it was worth it.
I had no god of the harvest but suzing the religious CS really does help once you have taken a few foreign temples. The faith cost of builders is quite low and but at least I had the money to buy builders as well if the faith ran out.
I'm still trying to get my head around it all, not enough time to play

 

[Boyan_Sun]

15% also meaning you have a military academy?

Absolutely. That spaceport city only need a encampment (buildings inside can be delayed), which also can be purchased by Reyna. Actually I forgot to plan it myself, but Rogue-star did.
I didn't build Big Ben (not enough trees if you played peacefully), but I think it's really worth it if you can.

 

[Victoria]

which can be all purchased by Reyna in 1 turn

Sure... but I still see all those eureka s to do with the encampment and think maybe I did not need to spend the cash at the end. I guess an encampment slows down your beginning though

 

[Onii-chan]

Use Pingala to tech up, then switch to Magnus for Vertical Integration when working on the actual Space Race projects?

Oh and don't forget you can insta-buy your Spaceport(s) with Reyna first too

 

[Boyan_Sun]

I guess an encampment slows down your beginning though

It's really hard. There aren't many trees left in my early cities, my spaceport city was founded very late, the latitude is usually very high (many trees and deers there). But of course, it's OK if you planning is very good.

Use Pingala to tech up

That should be better. Pingala's 1T of production savings may be not really worth it.

 

[Softly]

Assume you have 6 super factories around, so it is just adding 6 * 7 * (1+100%+20%+20%) = 100.8 extra prod per turn, and for that 6 factories you must pay 6 * (195 + 390 + cost of IZ) prod and 6 district places, and Mausoleum - James Watt combo which may depend on luck.
Comparing to chop/builder: when you have done the last several techs, the chop value of each tree is 370+ with Magnus, a full charged builder's value is 1800 * 3% * 7 * (1+15%) = 434.7 per turn if you have Liang and Pyramid.

Was just pointing out how Vertical Integration can be really strong when the stars align. Was not trying to compare Vertical Integration with chopping.

 

[Victoria]

Was just pointing out how Vertical Integration can be really strong when the stars align.

Not even when the stars align, “just because” is good enough for me. It’s a nice feeling getting a city over 100 prod.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Not even when the stars align, “just because” is good enough for me. It’s a nice feeling getting a city over 100 prod.

Yeah, I'm not sure why "because it's AWESOME" isn't a valid answer.

 

[Victoria]

Yeah, I'm not sure why "because it's AWESOME" isn't a valid answer.

Why not, it’s a game. Life and death is a pixelated non taste-able format. The answer is good enough for me but agreed its not something you can debate.
I chop, chop till I drop, I spent the time pointing out in threads exactly why IZ are not worth it, however I cannot argue against awesome and feel that that’s why people still use them. Years ago they nerfed factories but they should really have tempered chopping, or at least both together.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

I went factory-heavy for the first time in a long time in my first game as Scotland. You want IZs anyway with them, and it just seemed to natrually want to go the Vertical Integration route.

But yeah it was satisfying and awesome.