Ploughshares into Rifles

[nightpanth]

I experienced a phenomenon recently that I've tried to encorporate into my strategy and I would like to see how you all use production slingshots.

When I'm friendly+ with a maritime CS, settlers only take a single turn to produce, and leave a tremendous production overflow that I can funnel into wonders/libraries, etc. It's most pronounced in the early game when my capital has a pop of 6-10. I've built the great lighthouse or stonehenge in a single turn with the extra hammers.

I've avoided building settler/unit/settler/unit/settler/unit because that seems OP. Even using the extra hammers on a legit build seems a little too easy. What say you?

 

[Huaojozu]

How are you getting such a crazy food surplus at that point in the game? 8 pop means 24 food if everyone worked farms and thus 8 surplus food. Even with several maritime city-states it doesnt seem to be possible to get a 1-turn settler that early, yet even a surplus that would translate to a meaningful number of hammers.

Later on, sure, but in time for Stonehenge?

 

[nightpanth]

How are you getting such a crazy food surplus at that point in the game?

I'm playing at Prince difficulty, mostly. I'm not very good at the game, yet. I just happened to give my first gift to a maritime CS on the same turn I started a settler once. I noticed the production boost and it became one of the strategies I use when the conditions are good. I think SH is staying unbuilt much longer at my level than at yours

 

[Pyrrho]

That is pretty funny, but I would like to know how much of an overflow of hammers we are talking about. SH costs roughly 120 hammers (not too sure on that right now) so we are talking serious overflow.

I am just curious where this significant amount of overflow is coming from, I suppose it has to be a weird exchange rate between the excess food used on the settler that is then transformed into hammers for the next project?

 

[Monthar]

What policies do you have?

 

[diz2]

Does anyone know the math by which overflow food is converted to hammers?

(I don't think I ever realized it was converted to hammers...)

 

[nightpanth]

I've generally been taking tradition policies, but I've only reached Oligarchy (+wonder Production?) in time for Sh a couple times. I've also had marble a couple times as well. I should have paid more attention to those production modifiers. I'm very haphazard with my production and research at this point, so I can't really say what turns I'm gifting maritime states, etc. I just see the circumstances come up where I have enough money to become friends with a CS, and I need a settler, and I have a wonder on the board.
I figure that higher level players integrate this production boost into their strategies somehow, but I read much more about tech slingshots than production slingshots.

 

[Pyrrho]

Well I'll definitely keep an eye open for this the next time I load up CIV nightpanth but I just have to wonder how much of a benefit this 'production slingshot' is (unless the excess food->hammer ratio is insane I intuitively find it very doubtful that this is very useful).

For example after producing a settler you had SH down to 1 turn, how many turns was it before (I doubt we are talking a big change here). Don't get me wrong, I <3 that you mentioned this because I actually completely forgot that excess food would convert to hammers, but to use this for the sole reason of speeding up other projects (i.e. I don't need a settler I just want to speed up production of something else) I am not convinced that this is too helpful (but I will have to give this a shot myself to be sure of course).

 

[diz2]

(unless the excess food->hammer ratio is insane I intuitively find it very doubtful that this is very useful).

If you can get a free wonder from the overflow then it *must* be insane (aka, a bug).

I searched a little and didn't find anything on Civ5 settler training mechanics. Nothing on how much food it requires and what happens to the overflow.

 

[diz2]

I conducted a little research into this.

Started up a new file emperor/standard/Oda + took no SPs or techs that would have any effect on this issue.

First, set 1 citizen to grass land tile. Produced 2nd citizen in 8 turns.

Next, queued up settler to observe mechanics.

Basically, mechanics seem to be that settler costs 89 hammers. Hammers counts as hammers, and excess food count as hammers at 1-to-1. I could work hill for two hammers, or grassland for 2 excess food but either way when settler was being produced I got 6 hammers. I could get 5 hammers by selecting a 1 food, 1 gold tile. Or make 7 hammers by going -1 on food.

Production time for 1st settler was simply 89/(hammers + excess food converted to hammers). With 6 hammers took 15 turns, 18 turns with 5 hammers, etc.

So, took 2 excess food + 4 hammers = 6 settler hammers set up and advanced 14 turns. With settler one turn away, I queued up collossus. Queue indicates colossus will take 150 hammers/38 turns. Advance 1 more turn to produce settler. In theory, should have been one overflow food (or is it one over flow hammer?)

Checked on colossus. Still shows 38 turns to go. Shows progress of 0 of 150 hammers.

Conclusion: no evidence of overflow at all.

If it over-powered overflow exists, it must require more complicated scenario than this...

 

[Monthar]

I think you'll need to build for 1 turn before the overflow is added. Then you should see that additional 1 hammer.

It might be better to test this when you can time it so the settler only needs 1 or two hammers to complete when it has only 1 turn to go. This way you get a sizable overflow to add to the next project.

 

[nightpanth]

I think I have a better idea of how it's working. I didn't experiment much, just played a couple games. I think the 1 turn wonder I was talking about in the op must have been with Egypt and marble, because I didn't get super production in my games tonight.

thanks for playing it out scientific-like I'm surprised that you didn't get any overflow. What I found tonight was that I could shave a couple turns off the next production project if I gifted 500 gold to a maritime CS while I was building my second settler. I'm playing at prince, too. maybe I'm getting some kind of difficulty bonus?

 

[diz2]

I think you'll need to build for 1 turn before the overflow is added. Then you should see that additional 1 hammer.

It might be better to test this when you can time it so the settler only needs 1 or two hammers to complete when it has only 1 turn to go. This way you get a sizable overflow to add to the next project.

This is not generally how overflows work in the game. You can usually see them added to the next unit, and in the progress numbers if you look. I saw no evidence of hammer overflow from settlers at all, let alone some uber 10x multiplier, which is what it would need to be to get a wonder in 1 turn off overflow. I suspect if there is any food overflow it ends up in the food bucket. I didn't pay attention to that.

Anyway, the test I did can be re-done by anyone in a few minutes.

If someone can document that this feature actually exists that will be the first step in figuring out how to use it...

 

[vexing]

This is not generally how overflows work in the game. You can usually see them added to the next unit, and in the progress numbers if you look.

it's not added until the next turn. ie selecting what you want to build does not add the overflow, and it's not in the numbers... the visual picture of the progress fills up slightly based on how much overflow you will get the next turn, but the numbers won't adjust and actual overflow won't be added until you advance a turn.

 

[vexing]

here's a firetuner setup situation that demonstrates it working, although it says nothing of it's efficacy.

the excess overflow from settlers does translate into hammers, regardless if the overflow came from food or production.

if you load the save, last turn i produced a settler that costs 69 production with 153.5, 19 from hammers * 1.5 from liberty (note liberty only works on hammers) + 125 from excess food. the next thing you produce (if you change from a settler) will get 94.5 overflow. if you produce another settler, the overflow won't accumulate, you'll only get 94.5 on the next thing.

is this actually useful? i guess in a food heavy/hammer poor city you may want to micromanage production to maximize overflow.

 

[Michl2602]

I'm actually not understanding how it comes to hammers that way and try to explain it for myself:

The maritime-CS brings extra food and the speed on which a settler is produced depends also on food surplus (not only on hammers). After settler is produced remaining food is converted to hammers.

Is it like that or how do hammers come into the game here?

 

[diz2]

I'm actually not understanding how it comes to hammers that way and try to explain it for myself:

The maritime-CS brings extra food and the speed on which a settler is produced depends also on food surplus (not only on hammers). After settler is produced remaining food is converted to hammers.

Is it like that or how do hammers come into the game here?

When you produce a settler excess food is converter to hammers at 1-to-1.

So, if you have 4 hammers and 2 excess food you get 6 hammers when you are producing a settler.

 

[diz2]

if you load the save, last turn i produced a settler that costs 69 production with 153.5, 19 from hammers * 1.5 from liberty (note liberty only works on hammers) + 125 from excess food. the next thing you produce (if you change from a settler) will get 94.5 overflow. if you produce another settler, the overflow won't accumulate, you'll only get 94.5 on the next thing.

I will check again and see if I can replicate.

The big question this raises to me is: What are you doing with 125 excess food?

I don't think I ever get close to that.

 

[vexing]

The big question this raises to me is: What are you doing with 125 excess food?

I don't think I ever get close to that.

i set up an extreme situation with firetuner just to demonstrate. it's siam, near full grasslands/farms, ton of maritime allies. you can check out the save.

 

[diz2]

i set up an extreme situation with firetuner just to demonstrate. it's siam, near full grasslands/farms, ton of maritime allies. you can check out the save.

You are correct. I verified your finding. The overflow hammers (in my case 1 hammer) are added at the end of the next turn, after you have worked on the next unit.

So, the conclusions are:

1) While producing settlers, any excess food is converted to hammers at a 1-to-1 ratio
2) On the turn the settler is produced, any overflow hammers are used for the next item produced.

I still can't imagine having enough excess food for this to make much of a difference.

In the OP he is talking about kicking out a Stonehenge with the overflow from a 1 turn settler in a 6-10 pop city! How could you possibly have that much excess food at the time Stonehenge is an option?