Poland, Casimir, overpowered?

[njmfff]

why is Casimir always so cranky? first AI to suffers from Bipolar disorder.

He's gets guarder for no reason, yet gives full price on trade. He's friendly, yet he demands extra gold for lux-for-lux trade. Won't give open boarders, and doesn't want to accept yours even when you're giving it for free, but wants to move settler through your empire???

 

[Blitz Spearman]

Huh, so the guy who is advocating for Poland not being overpowered for the last 3 pages is actually just saying that what Poland can do with Solidarity, other civs can do with culture or great writers or othre stuff accessible to any civ? Really?

You know, Poland also gets Great Writers. Anything a civ can do, ANYTHING, Poland can do better, because they have the same stuff but earlier. It is a shame that most deity players don't read General Discussions. If this thread were at Strategy & Tips, the poll results would be overwhelmingly different, because a lot of discussion has already been made about Poland not just being as good as other top tier civs like Mayans, Ethiopia and Babylon, but maybe being way better than them, alone in an even higher tier, because it is just that powerful.

 

[adwcta]

Yep, Denkt is a classic example of someone who rationalizes evidence to a preconceived notion (all civs are equal!). At least he's consistent about it, even if the very fact that civs get tweaked by patches all the times proves Denkt's underlying philosophy wrong.

The question is not whether Poland is overpowered compared to the average civ. It is. The only question is whether it's so overpowered compared to even the best other civs, that it's broken. But, regardless of the answer to the second question, it still means Poland should be taken down a notch for balance.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

Huh, so the guy who is advocating for Poland not being overpowered for the last 3 pages is actually just saying that what Poland can do with Solidarity, other civs can do with culture or great writers or othre stuff accessible to any civ? Really?

You know, Poland also gets Great Writers. Anything a civ can do, ANYTHING, Poland can do better, because they have the same stuff but earlier. It is a shame that most deity players don't read General Discussions. If this thread were at Strategy & Tips, the poll results would be overwhelmingly different, because a lot of discussion has already been made about Poland not just being as good as other top tier civs like Mayans, Ethiopia and Babylon, but maybe being way better than them, alone in an even higher tier, because it is just that powerful.

If you could pick the same policy over and over again, Poland would be very overpowered however you can't do that meaning that if you pick Everything that will help you get your Victory then your next pick won't be as usefull and you would rather had Another UA, UI, UB, UU helping you with getting your victory.
And if we consider to take in UU, UI, UB then Poland will look much weaker then If we just Consider UA because both of them is kind of weak compared to alot of other Civs.

Yep, Denkt is a classic example of someone who rationalizes evidence to a preconceived notion (all civs are equal!). At least he's consistent about it, even if the very fact that civs get tweaked by patches all the times proves Denkt's underlying philosophy wrong.

The question is not whether Poland is overpowered compared to the average civ. It is. The only question is whether it's so overpowered compared to even the best other civs, that it's broken. But, regardless of the answer to the second question, it still means Poland should be taken down a notch for balance.

I don't go around and say all Civs are equal, however I don't Think any Civ are much stronger or weaker then any other and I hate the tier systems people put up because it don't really prove anything at all.

Why Poland is not Overpowered:
Is it the best Science Civ: No, other Civs can Tech better then it.
Is it the best Culture Civ: No, other Civs can get more Tourism then it can while still getting the needed Techs about as fast.
Is it the best Diplomatic Civ: No other Civs do have an easier time to get CS.
Is it the best Conquest Civ: No other Civs are better at Conquest then Poland is.

Looking at all Victory condition Poland is not best at anyone of them, Overpowered would mean it would be best at atleast one.

Is Poland UA good: Yes its not just good but very good however it don't really allow for specialisation which hurt the Civ.
Is Poland UB good: Depends however many other Civs in my opinion gets better Buildings.
Is Poland UU good: Its a good buff over it base Unit however many other Civs gets better units.

 

[neoaspilet11]

well i just squashed Casimir in my latest game. Im using China in immortal quick pangea settings. The key to defeat Casimir is to DOW him at renaissance before he could get his UU the winged hussar. keep the pressure always. he is really tough. I just captured his two cities including his capital and i settle for peace treaty in exchange for another city. after 12 turns he declared war to me again. i was caught off guard. so i bribed washington to DOW to him. That was enough to keep him busy until i squashed casimir.

 

[adwcta]

Denkt, you keep saying Poland doesn't allow for specialization when I've repeated how having multiple policy trees, more than another civ, allows for synergistic specialization and compounded/faster bonuses. Experienced people have also backed up that claim that Poland is indeed either comparable or flat out better than other civs in all these VCs besides military. On top of that, it is inarguable that Poland is the most flexible, and you can change your VC of choice easily depending on the situation. You can repeat your conclusions louder and more frequently, but very few people who know the mechanics of the game well are behind you on this, and for good reason. You'll have an easier time arguing that Denmark is not the absolute worst than that Poland is not the absolute best.

There are good civs and bad civs. Poland is the best or one of the best for all peaceful VCs. Ask around. Oh wait, we have.

 

[Blitz Spearman]

I actually think that the fact that Poland is not the best civ for Domination is a statement on how broken are ranged units (the only reason why Arabia, Mongolia, China and England are superior) and how poorly made is the Honor tree. If Honor was any good (and it should be) and if Camels weren't so ridiculously broken in a war, Poland would be the best at Domination as well, by mixing Liberty and Honor.

 

[GoStu]

I've been waffling back and forth on my answer for a bit now. Poland's 'weakness' (if you can call it that) is that it's totally vanilla until the Classical era, and still probably lagging a bit behind mid-Medieval. He's got nothing to help against an early attack... but most civs don't have anything special in this era either. He doesn't have any real weaknesses other than maybe a habit of beelining to trigger extra policies early and neglecting military tech more than most.

I can absolutely see where the people arguing OP are coming from: a Civ you have to deal with early or not at all smells a little strong to me, but there's plenty of other Civs I'd not leave unmolested either. Greece, Korea, Babylon, and a couple others feature highly on the "kill it before it gets too strong!" list, and those three all have some things to help them be strong in the early game.

I actually think that the fact that Poland is not the best civ for Domination is a statement on how broken are ranged units (the only reason why Arabia, Mongolia, China and England are superior) and how poorly made is the Honor tree. If Honor was any good (and it should be) and if Camels weren't so ridiculously broken in a war, Poland would be the best at Domination as well, by mixing Liberty and Honor.

Strongly disagree; even if Honor had nicer bonuses it still wouldn't make up for murder machines like the Keshik + Khan combo, or a quick zerging by Battering Rams & Horse Archers, or just a wave of Impi.

Denkt, you keep saying Poland doesn't allow for specialization when I've repeated how having multiple policy trees, more than another civ, allows for synergistic specialization and compounded/faster bonuses. Experienced people have also backed up that claim that Poland is indeed either comparable or flat out better than other civs in all these VCs besides military. On top of that, it is inarguable that Poland is the most flexible, and you can change your VC of choice easily depending on the situation. You can repeat your conclusions louder and more frequently, but very few people who know the mechanics of the game well are behind you on this, and for good reason. You'll have an easier time arguing that Denmark is not the absolute worst than that Poland is not the absolute best.

There are good civs and bad civs. Poland is the best or one of the best for all peaceful VCs. Ask around. Oh wait, we have.

Playing Devil's Advocate here: the synergies towards some VCs (Science in particular) aren't really all that strong. For example, Scholasticism is pretty pathetic when you realize how little science City-States actually generate for themselves. I just wrapped up a game where I had EVERY city-state on the board allied to me at the end of the game, and it barely made up 10% of my total science output. By the time Scholasticism was doing anything noteworthy, I'd already won. Per ally you're getting 25% of the output of a mid-sized, AI-controlled and underdeveloped city.

Same as the +Science boosts in Commerce: that tops out at +8 Science per city, that only with a Market, Mint, Bank, and Stock Exchange, plus a Research Lab, and University with Rationalism. Even adding a Factory with Order and your National College, that's a whopping +11 Science... by the time you've reached Electricity.

Does it help? Sure, in terms of general empire improvement - but it's probably not to the same strength as extra scientists like Babylon (plus that early Academy), nor is it the extra Science boosts like Korea + Korea's extra science Specialists and Improvements. Now, if you'd like to file Korea and Babylon in the OP column too...

For Culture or Diplomacy it's quite valid though: e.g. Exploration being added to the essential Aesthetics for Culture, or Commerce added to the somewhat important Patronage in Diplomatic.

well i just squashed Casimir in my latest game. Im using China in immortal quick pangea settings. The key to defeat Casimir is to DOW him at renaissance before he could get his UU the winged hussar. keep the pressure always. he is really tough. I just captured his two cities including his capital and i settle for peace treaty in exchange for another city. after 12 turns he declared war to me again. i was caught off guard. so i bribed washington to DOW to him. That was enough to keep him busy until i squashed casimir.

Frankly, I think it has more to do with killing him before too many extra policies kick in, not the Winged Hussar. The WH is a neat toy but you don't really have to be that afraid of it: it's only a Lancer, after all.

 

[reddishrecue]

In one of my recent single player games, Poland AI squashed Brazil AI. Since my civilization and Maria's civilization were the other 2 civilizations in the same cotinent, we couldn't do much to Poland since Maria wasn't that geographically close to Poland but was close to Brazil.

 

[direblade99]

Denkt you are objectively wrong. Poland is one of the best for science because they can get growth policies in tradition faster and absolutely burn their way through rationalism. They're one of the best for diplo because they can get all of patronage AS WELL as all the other policies a normal civ can get. They're one of the best at cultural because they can get the techs in aesthetics far earlier than say france without the oppurtunity costs of not going rationalism because they get that too. And they're one of the best at domination because they have a unique building that helps production and gold, a strong unique unit and all the other bonuses mentioned which either get them to artillery faster or cbow rush more effectively.

 

[Dtekkar]

I don't think anyone should argue that they aren't in a high tier for civs. But I have a hard time believing that they are definitively a tier above babylon, korea, maya, arabia, austria, inca, & shoshone.

In a game with keshiks, one-sided ignore terrain costs warfare, and marry-selling city states to amass a modern army at a geometric rate is "ok"-ed, I don't think poland is overpowered. The designers of the game are disinterested in close balance & have other priorities.

Yes probably all T1 civs should be nerfed. No one can argue america over, say, the maya. But unless it is a bug like H'watcha's, it's just probably not gonna happen.

 

[danaphanous]

lol, necro!

That said, I'll take this opportunity to say I squashed Poland like a bug on my last immortal game as no other than: wait for it...Polynesia!

I also was only 2 policies behind him at this time (late renaissance just entering industrial) I think in the hands of a human he would be super nasty though. Oh, and one cool thing about the AI is when he decides to go straight down the piety tree for the reformation belief it doesn't hurt him as much as other civs due to the UA. So then he gets a sweet religion AND another good tree. If he mixed and matched he'd be beast...

 

[kkapalk]

My two cents: I am not a top player and some of the mechanics and concepts admittedly baffle me a little, but I think Poland is definitely a very strong civ. I play on King, usually with civs such as Egypt, Ethiopia, England and China. I usually win after an amount of struggling, so this level suits me at the moment. But I tried a game as Poland and was shocked at how fast I excelled in all departments. And this is from a player who somewhat stumbles through the game, with no particular plan being followed. The policies came thick and fast and soon I was way beyond anyone else in every department. I ended up crushing the other players very fast indeed. It seemed like I had gone back down to Prince level! I am going to try them again soon to confirm what I suspect, that Poland is indeed overpowered.

 

[White Out]

next time you play a game and there's a run away leader, check how many social policies they have with infoaddict. i bet they're the leader there too. poland=amazing. are they OP? well, is babylon OP? korea? brazil for culture?

how do you determine the best or most powerful civ in the game? hard to nail it down. the 2 easiest games ive had with reasonable difficulty settings are with babylon and poland. i won a rather easy science with with babylon and a crushing culture win with poland. playing with poland was remarkable because i was able to burn thru aesthetics, tradition, and commerce and just spend my ass off on top of having by far the most SP's. getting the oracle with anyone is awesome, but with poland, it just makes it that much more laughable.

if i had to play with ONE civ to get an easy win, i would choose poland. if your starting up and your going to be under attack early you can clear down honour and tradition/liberty at the same time. oh you're starting position lends itself well to a tonne of jungle and there's a mountain next to you? sure take a science path instead. where babylon and others are focused, poland isnt. poland wins, but not quite op

 

[Strategist83]

Maybe not overpowered, but it's close. There's no contention that Poland is a top-tier civ. They are similar to Byzantium in that they are highly configurable/versatile due to their extra polices (versus Byzantium's extra religious pick) but they don't even require a religion to get started. That means they will perform well regardless of the settings: Map type, hostile civs nearby or not - it doesn't matter, Poland can play well in any situation. The Winged Hussar is an absolutely beastly unit, to boot, and the unique building is very useful, too.

 

[joncnunn]

Yes, Poland is overpowered in the hands of a human. Still fun to play if you either promote yourself one difficulty level higher than you normally do or else give yourself an offsetting handicap by starting with Piety or Honor.

 

[Inhalaattori]

Yes Poland is overpowered. I say this as a deity player who has played all the civs.

 

[TheGrumpyBuddha]

I vote for OP as well -- not super mega broken OP, but the best of the best of the Civs. As another pointed out, you get Rationalism as soon as it is available, which is huge.

 

[tat501]

I've been playing Poland recently. I must admit its like playing on easy mode. At least 1 level easier than the game difficulty is set at.

 

[Halcyan2]

My vote is a definite yes. I have felt that Poland's UA was overpowered ever since it was first introduced with BNW.

Many civilization's UAs are roughly equal in power to a single Social Policy. So if Poland got a single SP, that would be balanced. But getting a free SP *every single* era, is overly strong.

For example:

- Egypt's Monument Builders UA is roughly equivalent to Tradition's Aristocracy.

- France's City of Light UA is weaker than the Aesthetics finisher.

- Greece's Hellenic League UA is slightly better than the Patronage opener.

- India's Population Growth UA is worse than many of the happiness SP's.

- Portugal's Mare Clausum UA is similar to some of the SP's that increase trade route income.

etc.

So Poland can easily simulate one of these civilizations with a single SP choice, and then it gets all the additional SP's on top of that.

Yeah, I realize that you have to consider the UU's and UB's as well. Nonetheless I think that Poland's UA is the strongest and most flexible of all the civilizations in the game.