Poll; Traffic light aproach to Culture flip

[Smoking mirror]

Earlier I posted the following Sugestion as an alterantive to the "Instant" culture flip that has caused so much anoyance in players of "the militant style of play" of Civ 3.
Do people think this is a good idea, and more importantly, do people think that this is realisticly possible to implement, with out a total overhaul of the game. I don't know much about programing, but I asume that of all the sugested alterantives to instant culture flips, this would be the easiest to implement, while providing an realistic improvement to the concept. I realy like culture flipping, and overall, the concept of culture in civ III, but I always feel like I've been reading a book and acidentaly turned two pages at once; "what the hell! where did my elite tank armies vanish to, and that town of loyal citizens, Whay are the all now french?". I just feel it needs more of a gradual aproach.
Coments are apreciated.



I think the most easy fix to implement would be a Traffic Light strategy, during peacetime.
greenFirst time a city would culture flip you should get the message;
"Disident groups are campaining for incorporation to the (whatever civ the flip would be) (whatever their Government is), word is they admire their culture"
and the city should go in to disorder.
Orangesecond time the city would flip you should get the following message
"Ethnic (citizens from whatever the enemy civ is) freedom fighters from (the city) have attacked (your own civ) government officials in open rebellion."
and some of your own nationals should be elliminated, and the happyness improvements in the city should be destroyed (temple cathedral etc..).
Red The final time a culture flip should happen the following message should be shown;
"Armed rebels in (the city) have revolted during civil demonstrations and our own troops have been expelled with heavy casualties, (the enemy civ) has incorporated the rebels in to thier (whatever their government is)." the city shoud flip to the enemy, and your troops should all be expelled to your own cultural borders with some (perhaps all but one) of their HP lost, they would be open to attack, but wouldn't be "Instantly vanished away".

This way each time the chances of further flipping becomes more likely, Disorder, reduced loyal citizens and finaly reduced happines and culture- This is very much what happened during the run up to WWII on the Czecheslovakian borders.
But it also allows you the opertunity to reinforce against the chances by rebuilding improvements and stationing troops there. It also means that the whole process is more of a gradual slide towards cultural incorporation, rather than a sudden flip.

During a war time the same could happen but with the following texts
green "(whatever the enemy civ) Nationalists are staging strikes against the occupational government"
Orange "(whatever the enemy civ) Rebels are exeqution terrorist actions against the occupational government. Some of our officials have been killed, and relegious groups persecuted".
Red "(the city) has rebeled agaisnst the Ocupational government and allowed (enemyciv) troops in to the city at night. Our troops have been expelled with heavy casualties".

The same should be the case for A.I. cities, so you know there to target your cultural infiltration strategy, for example;

Green "Disidents in (the enemy city) are campaining for incorporation in to our (our government type)".
Orange "In secret arangement with our government (our civ) nationalist militants in (the enemy city) are staging paramilitary actions against the unlawfull ocupation by (the enemy civ)".
Red "Armed rebels in (the enemy city) have thrown off the (enemy civ) tryrants and want to join our (government type), What shall we do?"

I think this Traffic light aproach is the easiest overhaul to make, the most difficult thing to do would be the expultion of the military units. Also I think it would put to rest most peoples questions as to the realism of culture flipping.

 

[BCLG100]

yeh i think it would work bu i dont think that cities that have over 20 units in should rebel because its not like the resistance leader would pick the most heavily guarded city to revolt in

 

[Baron Scot]

isnt the middle signal yellow, not orange?

or is it different for other countries? for america its green yellow red. i have never driven anywhere else, so i dunno

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

like the lights

 

[SunZsu]

Just nuke the insolent peasants!!! ..... that'll teach'em

 

[Marlos]

The 'traffic light' is a great idea, Smoking Mirror! (betcha that Firaxis wished that they would've thought of it!)

Culture flipping without warning is like getting fired without a warning. Not that I'm speaking from personal experience or anything...

 

[FrantzX]

I have always advocated a screen in the city view that gave you the percentage chance of a flip.

 

[Graeme the mad]

I have what I consider a better idea but which is harder to implement.
The culture 'flip' should not occur just like it does, removing all your units (ridiculous). Instead a 'unit' should be created when a city flips. This 'unit' will appear in the city and automatically fight your strongest unit in the city, then the next strongest, then the next etc. Fast units of yours should be given the possibility of defeat. The units attack parameter should be based on the age that the civ thats rebelling is in.
The unit should be quite strong and should appear more often than regular culture flips.
This would mean rebellions could be put down but with some casualties - not an all or nothing approach and even major cities could conceivably be held but not without losses.
IF the unit beats every defender it should be replaced with the standard defending unit (as happens now)

I would really like to see this but know it is not possible in the game as it stands

 

[Gastric ReFlux]

I just wanted to say that I'm all for pancake flipping. If you don't flip your pancakes, they get all burnt one one side and uncooked gooey batter on the other.

 

[Level]

In the yellow stage some units should get damaged and some workers/refugees should leave.

 

[Baron Scot]

Originally posted by Baron Scot
isnt the middle signal yellow, not orange?

or is it different for other countries? for america its green yellow red. i have never driven anywhere else, so i dunno

im still in the dark on this one, thats strange, i never quoted myself before.

 

[GFandango]

Originally posted by FrantzX
I have always advocated a screen in the city view that gave you the percentage chance of a flip.

Even a general hint from the city advisor would be sufficient if there's a worry that a precise percentage would give away too much information. It would be similar to the foreign advisor's hints which depend on your relative culture ratings:

a) They are in awe of our culture (>200% of their culture)
b) They admire our culture (100%-200% of their culture)
c) They are distainful of our culture (50%-100% of their culture)

... etc.

The city advisor could say:

a) Our citizens are in awe of their culture (10%-20% chance of flip)
b) Our citizens admire their culture (5%-10% chance of flip)
c) Our citizens are interested in their culture (1%-5% chance of flip)

You can then make an informed decision whether to risk your troops by having them stay in the city or not. Other than that, I think culture flipping should stay as it is. The 'Traffic light' approach would make it too easy to prevent culture flipping and make it pointless IMO. According to the culture flip formula, a very high % chance to flip is only between 10%-20%. The chance to flip three times would only be .1%-.8% (less, since you're given a two warnings, and thus two opportunities to reduce the %flip). This would pretty much kill culture flipping altogether.

 

[Smoking mirror]

I don't drive so I imagine it could be yellow in england too, but I'm not sure.
I'm not sugesting that it should be made three times less likely by the traffic light aproach, An increased base chance of culture flipping should be implemented (based on number of hostile citizens) so that over all, the chances of flipping are aprox the same. As it stands you can never know which cities to reinforce with military units, its not like you can garrison huge forces in every one of your cities just in case of a flip; Of course you never know when that final flip will occur. If you have a weak culture, you will soon find yourself at the point where most of your conqured territories are on a red light and you will have to garrison them.
I like the idea of cities culture flipping if you have a weak culture, it is part of what makes Civ III such a strategicly challenging game; But I like to at least have the illusion of control through strategy. The general strategy for avoiding culture flipping is to be a religious or scientific civ and spend nearly the whole game building temples or libraries- Brilliant if you have a peacefullstrategic aproach to the game- but there should be an option left open to militant players; The bigest problem people have had with culture flipping is militant strategists feel that they are being denied the abilty to fight culture flipping, because there is no militant strategy apart from having the whole of your army sitting around supressing CFing in every city.

 

[Smoking mirror]

Oh yes I just remebered, in england the middle light is Amber; Nearer to orange than yellow.

 

[GFandango]

Originally posted by Smoking mirror
I don't drive so I imagine it could be yellow in england too, but I'm not sure.
I'm not sugesting that it should be made three times less likely by the traffic light aproach, An increased base chance of culture flipping should be implemented (based on number of hostile citizens) so that over all, the chances of flipping are aprox the same.

If the overall %flip remains the same, then I think it would be cool to see this "traffic light" idea. I would say that you should still lose all your troops on a red light since you've been given plenty of warning and time to either reinforce or evacuate the city.

The bigest problem people have had with culture flipping is militant strategists feel that they are being denied the abilty to fight culture flipping, because there is no militant strategy apart from having the whole of your army sitting around supressing CFing in every city.

I think I could argue that a militant strategy would be to carefully choose which cities to take and how many to take per turn. Taking only one city that's not near their border is strategically poor since you'll be guaranteed to have most of their borders within your city radius. Taking their border cities first and/or taking several cities in one turn to minimize their borders within your city radius, but not taking too many cities that you can't garrison them with enough troops is the strategy that militants can still use.

 

[cgannon64]

I love the idea! It makes the game much more realisitic, because in real revolutions, such as the American Revolution and the Russian Revolution, the leaders had many warning signs. I would like one change---for orange (or yellow, amber, whatever) I think the people should destroy 1 random building (not just happiness) and 1 random unit.

I love it! Send a letter to Firaxis!