Incoming long post! Found this half finished doc file from an older thread post maybe five years ago, and decided to think it through. I am hoping that it will be of some use here, rather than remain unfinished on a PC. This is not a list of demands by any means, but I had time to look over this. I am not sure if this is a good time to start this thread, but here are up to 10 civs that I believe 'could' be included within RFCE in some way, whether playable, or not. I do NOT support all of them becoming playable civs, and I am biased towards some. Generic details are listed first, and the details are in spoiler tabs… By non-playable, I mean a civ that you cannot choose to pay as, like the Zengids in SOI, but they otherwise function as a regular civ in game. This is separate from the civs already being added: Sultanate of Rum, Sicily/Naples, Tunisia, Khanate of Crimea, Egypt (Fatimids – Mamluks)… Absinthe does all the work, and it is essentially his mod, so whatever he decides is completely up to him. I am thankful for his faithful duty to improving the mod. He doesn't need to add any of these suggestions, but I will make a case for each situation, especially since the timeline will likely be redone. My Short list: up to 6 playable civs, and 3 non-playable civs... 1. Golden Horde = playable 2. Lombards/Milan = playable 3. Florence = non-playable 4. Navarre = playable or N/A 5. Serbia = playable 6. Latin Empire = playable or N/A 7. Bohemia = playable 8. Moldova = Non-playable or independent city 9. Wessex = N/A [could be playable]? 10. Tlemcen (Zayyanid Kingdom) = non-playable or N/A **2, 5, and 7 are from RFCE++ Theme: Smaller states, whether playable or not playable, will be useful for gameplay as vassals (Sicily/Naples, Crimean Khanate, Bohemia, Navarre, Latin Empire*, Florence, Milan/Lombards, and Zayyanids/Tlemcen). One of the civic options allows +3 stability, I think, for every vassal. However, there aren't too many possibilities for vassals, so I don't know any advantage to using Vassalage except for the feudal stability bonus. I am also not worried about including smaller significant civs because they can always be conquered. For below, "Turns" represents how many turns the civ would be active historically speaking during the current old timeline and the new expanded timeline idea. Golden Horde (Number 1) Spoiler : Timeline: 1240s (1242/1256) – 1502 Significant? Yes Territory: Large Turns: 87 old / 131 new Spawn: either 1242 – 1256 at Sarai Batu* (or Tanai/Tana or Azaq, already a barbarian spawn) after main wave of keshiks attacking Kiev. Both dates representing Batu Khan founding the horde and his death respectively. Leaders: Batu Khan and Tokhtamysh Spawn stack: 6 or 7 UUs, 2 settlers, 2 guisarmers, 1 crossbowman, and maybe an Islamic missionary (They converted later on). UB: Kurultai (courthouse) - +1 trade route and +1 culture Darughachi (manor house) – slightly better wealth bonus without the stability bonus? Yam (from SOI but replaces market) UP: The Horde – Barbarian units cannot attack you (is this even possible?) Total War – Enemies suffer +50% war weariness Nomad Inclusion – Spawn of extra units from steppe? Or – Start with 2 great generals Last Barbarians – Extra wealth gained from pillaging and city capturing. UU: Keshik, Mangudai, Asud Guard, Khorchin. (Extra movement bonus?) UHVs: 1. Tatar Yoke – have 2 vassals by 1365 2. Have 4 vassals by 1420 3. Raze 8 cities with a population of “6” or higher. 4. Control 12 cities in 12 different provinces by 1345 5. Control 15 cities in 15 different provinces. 6. Have 1,000 gold from pillaging and razing by 1330 7. Have trade relations with the Genoans and the Egyptians 8. Kill 100 units by 1389? 9. Raze or capture 6 capital cities from 6 different civs 10. Collapse or vassalize the following: Bulgarians, Novgorod, Muscovites, Kievans, and Lithuanians 11. Secure 3 silver resources 12. Control 12% of the world territory Notes: Add extra barbarian units during Tamerlane’s scripted invasion to invade around eastern Ukraine; as well as extra units to help break them down in the 1380s. Why: I believe the Golden Horde should definitely be added as a playable civ, despite the focus of RFCE being on Europe, because of its influence on the continent as a whole, specifically Eastern Europe. Of course much of their historical empire, the steppe including their capital at Sarai, is not on the map. However, they controlled plenty of territory in Europe throughout the 13th and 14th centuries. The Mongol yoke doesn’t exactly exist within the game without a Mongol civ. Currently, Russia just kind of appears and has the unrealistic/ahistorical goal of ridding Greater Russia of all barbarians by 1482 (I already made another post about changing Russia's starting situation). Furthermore, they would be a far reaching late conquest civ that only the Ottomans have a niche in. Historical city spawns in Russia (Tver, Murom, Ryazan, Vladimir, Vologda etc.) would create useful obstacles as well. So the NE portion of the map isn’t entirely as empty as it otherwise would be. It will be a good opponent for Muscovy to overcome in general. Lombards/Milan (number 2) Spoiler : Timeline: 568 – 774 & 1098* - 1499 Significant? Yes Territory: Small/Medium Leaders: Rothari and Francesco Sforza and Gian Galeazzo Visconti Spawn: Milan (also Respawn) Data: RFCE++ UU: Urban Militia (replaces Maceman?) – I think this had a city defense or other promotion bonus… UB: Studio (Replaces X?) – Described as “an early theatre with a free artist.” UP: The Power of Commercial Centers – Trade Routes give extra food UHVs 1. The Lombard Kingdom: Control Lombardy, Tuscany, Liguria, Verona, Apulia, and Calabria in 774 2. The Lombard League: Destroy 25 German units 3. The Italic League: Ensure that you, Venice, and Genoa are more powerful than Austria and Spain Notes: Their existence would influence the new Sicily civ that will be added. Their inclusion may also interfere with France’s 1st conquest victory. Why: Taken from RFCE++, the Lombards had a significant effect on Italy for the early game, from consolidation and fighting the Byzantines to being conquered largely by Charlemagne (and breaking up). Also, by extension or respawn, they can function as Milan, a powerful city-state in Northern Italy. This would immensely benefit the game versus having a simple independent city just waiting to be conquered by Germany or Genoa. It would be able to fight against its neighbors and revolt/respawn against unstable conquerors, or become a vassal. I believe they should be a playable civ. Florence (number 3) Spoiler : Timeline: 1115 – 1800 Significant? No Territory: Small Spawn: Florence flipped, small stack of militia units. Leaders: Cosimo de Medici and Lorenzo I the Maginificent UP: Florentine Arts – Every building built gives a small boost of culture to Florence (based on hammer cost). OR trade routes give extra culture. OR late medieval techs are 25% cheaper. UU: Bandeira (translates to flag, but this was the name of organized units under a Condottieri) Replaces guisarme or pikeman. Cheaper unit, but less bonus against cavalry. Coblnello (mounted sergeant) - +4 strength. Colonella (like tercio) UB: Camerata de’ Bardi? (Replaces theatre) – costs more but has double culture effect. Increases city maintenance. UHVs 1. Control every land tile in Tuscany in 1532 2. Have a greater score than Venice, Genoa, and Milan combined. 3. Have 10,000 culture by year X 4. Have at least 3 companies in Florence 5. Settle 2 great merchants and 2 great artists in Florence Why/Notes: I cannot think of a decent unique UB for Florence, so maybe it should not be playable. It has a very small territory, Tuscany, and interferes with the independent spawn of Pisa/Firenze. Moreover, as a one city challenge in Italy, it would mostly be turn culture/gold clicking for any human player. The only significance I can think of for including Florence at all would be their effect on larger civs invading Italy, and inter-Italian gameplay. However, I prefer having Florence as a spawning non-playable civ than leaving it as an independent city which can easily be conquered by its larger neighbors. It would give a little bit of flavor and competition to surrounding civs in Italy. Navarre (number 4) Spoiler : Timeline: 824 – 1512* Significant? No Territory: Small Turns: 225 old / 298 new Leaders: Sancho the Great Starting Stack/Spawn: Navarre, 2 skirmishers or UUs, one worker, one missionary, and one archer. UP: Ecclesiastical Piety: religious buildings costs halved? Or discounted. UU: Jinete (Ginete/Genitour) replaces mounted sergeant: +25% vs melee and archery units UB: Baserri (replaces manor house) provides a culture bonus Garai (replaces granary) provides a culture bonus Dorretxeak* (replaces tower house) culture bonus UHVs: 1. Control Castille, Navarre, and Aragon by 1035 2. Control 2 cities in Aquitaine and Spain by 1000 3. Build a Catholic Cathedral by 1180 4. Have friendly relations with 3 other Iberian civs in 1345? 5. Have 6,000 culture by 1485 6. Control 1 city in Normandy, Navarre, Aquitaine, Provence, and Castille 7. Obtain the 1st whale resource (famous whalers) Notes/Why: This is another difficult civ for me to justify. It has a small territory, and will be little more than a 1 city challenge style. However, it is an underdog civ with larger neighbors all around it (Castile, Aragon, France, and Cordoba). It would be the earliest competitor to Cordoba, albeit, functioning more as resistance. It would help break Castile’s dominance, so Aragon is not captured by them so easily. Overall it will be a good competitor to all other Iberian civs. It will make Morocco’s 3rd UHV even more difficult though. Serbia (number 5) (Grand Principality to Successor States) Spoiler : Timeline: 1091 – 1398 Significant: Yes Territory: Medium/Large Turns: 99 old / 147 new Leaders: Stefan Dusan Data from RFCE++ UU: Vlastela (replaces armored lancer/knight) UB: Orthodox Hram (replaces X?) produces extra faith points on completion and 1 free priest UHVs 1. Zakonopravilo. Have a solid stability (20 points+?) by/in 1354 2. Control Serbia, Macedonia, Arberia, Thessaloniki, Epirus, and Thessaly in 1371 3. Have more military units than the Ottomans in 1540 Notes/Why: I think it is fairly necessary to include them in SE Europe to put pressure on all surrounding civs: Venice, Hungary, Bulgarians (if alive), and the Byzantines. This helps fracture the region and give the Ottoman player a new target to conquer. In all, it is a fun conquest civ with plenty of potential. Latin Empire (number 6) (Latin Empire to Successor States) Spoiler : Timeline: 1204 – 1261 / 1204 – 1458 (Frankokratia) Turns: 19 old / 30 new & 85 old / 127 new Significant: No Territory: Small/medium Leaders: Baldwin I Starting Stack: Outside Constantinople with siege units and galleys UP: Catholic Buildings produce extra stability? Or building are not destroyed upon conquest? UB: Salic Court (replaces courthouse) - +1 culture, and +50& trade route yield? Garrison (barracks) - +1 happiness UU: Frankish Sargent (replaces maceman) +25% vs archery units Flemish Infantry (guisarmier) – Ignores defensive bonuses like firearms units. +1 Strength. UHVs: 1. Control Thessaly, Morea, Constantinople, and Thrace 2. Survive to the year 1455 3. Control X relics 4. Spread Catholicism to 8 Orthodox cities 5. Control 4 luxury resources 6. Ensure Catholicism has twice or thrice as many followers as Orthodoxy. Notes/Why: Randomly flip one western Byzantine city for AI if conquest is successful (Athens, Thessalonica, or Hadrianopolis)? This one is a bit of a stretch even for me, but I am biased to include it. I imagine them functioning like KoJ or PoA in SOI. I like this as a potential civ for the following reasons. It helps fragment the Byzantines, especially in Europe, while fighting an uphill battle to expand into Greece/the Aegean (Principality of Achaea, and Duchy of Athens). I do not like the current “bribe” set up for the 4th Crusade where Venice or Genoa appear outside of Constantinople to conquer it. I think the current crusade mechanic can be improved upon. I prefer a Latin Empire having that task, but if they fail then nothing happens. In other words if the starting stack of Latin units fail to take Constantinople, then they fail to take it, no harm done, the fourth crusade is over. They are gone from the game. If they succeed then it will be a challenge for the Byzantine player. By extension I also see them representing the Frankokratia in Greece. They would linger in Greece assuming Constantinople is retaken until the Ottomans spawn. Byzantine culture, and city capture revolt will be a problem. Bohemia (number 7) Spoiler : Timeline: Moravia (833 – 907) : Duchy (870 – 1198) : Kingdom (1198 – 1526) Turns: Moravia 19 old / 25 new : Duchy 107 old / 126 new : Kingdom 129 old / 164 new Significant? Yes. Territory: Small/medium Leader: Ottokar II UP: +2 diplomatic relations with all civs? UB: Orloj (replaces X?) – A small production bonus? UU: War Wagon (replaces X?) – Strong defensive terrain bonus? UHVs 1. The Iron and Golden King – Control Bohemia, Moravia, Silesia, Austria, and Carinthia in 1271 2. The Iron and Golden Crown – Xx 3. The Bohemian Revolt – Have a larger pop than any HRE state in 1648 Notes/Why: Their territory is small, and medium at best, but they are significant for central Europe in my opinion. They are wedged between Poland and Germany, but also Austria and Hungary. They controlled territory to their south and north respectively for short periods of time. Their challenge will be existing as an independent state between 2 larger powers, or siding with any as a vassal. They will weaken Austria’s starting position, however, which may not be a good thing for their AI gameplay. My big question is when to have them spawn… Moldavia (number 8) Spoiler : Timeline: 1346 – 1498/1800. Significant? No Territory: Small Turns: 51 old / 76 new (independent) Leader: Stephen the Great UU: Hansari/Calarasi (light cavalry replacement) Can be an upgraded horse archer, or mounted sergeant with extra withdrawal chance. UP: Oastea Mare-The Large Host. Drafting pulls more population and generates more units (representing big historical strain on economy). Why/Notes: Same reasoning for including Volhynia’s independent city spawn. It would act as a buffer to Hungary et al from expanding eastward. I would like them to spawn as a non-playable civ, since they started out that way, and possibly be used as a vassal for larger surrounding civs. But maybe an independent city would suffice, or maybe that would be too deterministic for the game. I am not sure either way; but I like the idea of the non-playable vassal civ. Maybe they could be a conditional spawn if someone conquers/settles the area? Wessex (number 9) Spoiler : Timeline: 519 – 1016 Significant? No Territory: Small/Medium Turns: 134 old / 166 new Leader: Alfred the Great Spawn: Bristol or Winchester (Winchester would be flipped automatically?). Small group of units. UU: Fyrd militia or Fyrd Levy (replaces spearman) - UB: Burh (replaces Walls) - +1 gold and slightly cheaper? UP: Shires – Cities have improved trade route yields (30%?) OR cottages and farms are built faster? UHVs 1. Settle 2 great people by 1040 2. Control London, Wessex, Mercia, East Anglia, and Northumbria by 1000 3. Control 12 farms within your borders 4. Have a Catholic Monastery and manor built in each of your cities 5. Ensure there is not foreign culture/territory in England (not Scotland or Wales) in 1055 6. Settle 2 great artists by 1360 7. Have the most culture of any Western European civ by 1030 (or 1500) 8. Have the most friendly relations with the Pope 9. Build 3 Pagan shrines by 650 Notes: Viking UHV challenge and English spawn issue. Extra barb spawns to reenact Vikings and Heptarchy challenge. Why: I am not really concerned with this potential civ at all. I am ok with England’s status quo, however plain it may be. The purpose of this one would be (for the human player) to expand from a small city and unite England while fending off barbarian Vikings; and ultimately Norman invasion. I think it would be interesting for gameplay, but there are challenges to including Wessex; namely, Normandy/England’s spawn. Tlemcen/Zayyanids (number 10) – already represented by independent revolt. Spoiler : Timeline: 1235 – 1554 Significant: No Territory: Small/Medium Turns: 115 old / 159 new Leader: Abu Yahya I bin Zayyan Spawn: Same area as independent revolt (Tlemcen aka Northern Algeria) UU: N/A or vanilla Civ4 - Arabia’s Camel Archer Notes/Why: Will interfere with Morocco’s 1st UHV that occurs on 1246. I am not concerned with adding this civ too much either. I think it would add something to the Maghreb area, even though Absinthe is already adding Tunisia. It would put pressure on Morocco and Tunisia, but also be a possible vassal state for surrounding civs. Historically they were a major trading hub and accepted Jewish refugees from Spain; but I do not see enough purpose to include them as a playable civ. Non-playable or the status quo is good for me. Leftovers? Kingdom of Bosnia – You could technically throw this one in, but there is not enough room by the time they historically became a kingdom. Best represented by revolts, independent city spawns, or unit spawns Khazars – barbarian spawns, or simply not needed. Transylvania or Wallachia - I never found much reason to add either except for a conditional spawn for when the ottomans conquer into Hungary, but since I like adding Moldavia, it makes me a hypocrite. They were always vassals for the game, unlike Moldavia starting out independent though. Splitting Germany? I don't think this is a tenable idea anymore. Splitting France into Franks and Kingdom of France? Still thinking it over... I hope this eventually helps with something down the road.