Pre-Catapult Assault

[Artichoker]

During a game as Alexander of the Greeks, I realized that my strongest neighbor, Saladin, defended the Holy City with only 1 Archer, and his capital city with only 3 Archers.

Trying to strike before the opponent acquired Longbows, I then declared war and began an assault using the following forces (or something similar):

2 Swordsmen
2 Axemen
1 Chariot
1 Archer
1 Warrior

At the time, I was researching Construction but my force of Catapults was not ready yet. After I declared war, lo and behold the holy city's garrison increased to 3 Archers by the time my troops arrived at the city.

After losing half of my assault force, I decided to wait until my production of Catapults and Elephants was complete. This took about another 20 turns or so. When the forces finally arrived, the garrison had increased to 7 or so Archers, but by that time, even with their CG attributes they were no match for my force of catapults and elephants.

In retrospect, maybe I should have built the stronger force in the first place, before attacking. My theory behind attacking early was to seize the opportunity of the holy city being weakly defended. But also, I tried to attack before the opponent got access to Longbowmen.

 

[madscientist]

During a game as Alexander of the Greeks, I realized that my strongest neighbor, Saladin, defended the Holy City with only 1 Archer, and his capital city with only 3 Archers.

Trying to strike before the opponent acquired Longbows, I then declared war and began an assault using the following forces (or something similar):

2 Swordsmen
2 Axemen
1 Chariot
1 Archer
1 Warrior

At the time, I was researching Construction but my force of Catapults was not ready yet. After I declared war, lo and behold the holy city's garrison increased to 3 Archers by the time my troops arrived at the city.

After losing half of my assault force, I decided to wait until my production of Catapults and Elephants was complete. This took about another 20 turns or so. When the forces finally arrived, the garrison had increased to 7 or so Archers, but by that time, even with their CG attributes they were no match for my force of catapults and elephants.

In retrospect, maybe I should have built the stronger force in the first place, before attacking. My theory behind attacking early was to seize the opportunity of the holy city being weakly defended. But also, I tried to attack before the opponent got access to Longbowmen.

The mistake was assuming Sal would not use slavery to increase city defense prior to your troop arrival.

Your force also appears to be well under equipped, I would have doubled it at the minimun, and not brought the archer or warrior against an AI (barbs are OK).

Now, when you arrived with the under equipped but well balanced troop (should have brought a spear too since sal may have had horses) and found new archers is to forget the cities and pillage everything (roads, resources, cottages, mines). Little chance he could have gotten to Fuedalism before you had excess Cats and Jumbos to have your will with him (And you would need about 5 cats per city).

 

[CivMcNut]

Yeah I've gotten in the habit of bringing way more troops then I'll think I'll need. I suppose it's better to have em and not need em than to need em and not have em.

I hear you about having cats there to get the job done. They do make it much simpler to take a city once they come on the scene. I get impatatient and take out some cities very early (before cats) too.

 

[LlamaCat]

the X factors in your situation are, what was the cultural defense of the city you attacked, was it on a hill, and how were your units promoted and what promotions did his archers have? If he only had 1 archer but whipped or quickly got in 2 more archers, you could have easily taken the city with 2-3 promoted swordsmen and a chariot depending on the terrain, etc. The Axemen could be useful too if given the city raider promotion. But there are just too many other factors to consider before declaring your stack acceptable or not.

 

[Artichoker]

The mistake was assuming Sal would not use slavery to increase city defense prior to your troop arrival.

Your force also appears to be well under equipped, I would have doubled it at the minimun, and not brought the archer or warrior against an AI (barbs are OK).

Now, when you arrived with the under equipped but well balanced troop (should have brought a spear too since sal may have had horses) and found new archers is to forget the cities and pillage everything (roads, resources, cottages, mines). Little chance he could have gotten to Fuedalism before you had excess Cats and Jumbos to have your will with him (And you would need about 5 cats per city).

That seems to be the case, considering that the population of the city was at 4 by the time I gained control of it.

So, is it correct to wait until the strong army is ready, and then declare war, or declare war first, then pillage while waiting for catapults and elephants to arrive?

 

[Artichoker]

the X factors in your situation are, what was the cultural defense of the city you attacked, was it on a hill, and how were your units promoted and what promotions did his archers have? If he only had 1 archer but whipped or quickly got in 2 more archers, you could have easily taken the city with 2-3 promoted swordsmen and a chariot depending on the terrain, etc. The Axemen could be useful too if given the city raider promotion. But there are just too many other factors to consider before declaring your stack acceptable or not.

I think the original save file for that year is still available.

In summary, the defense value of the city was 40%, and his archers had the standard promotions available for a Protective leader.

My swordsmen, in the initial raid, were given the Cover promotion, for countering Saladin's archer units. I'll have to load the save file again for the exact details.

 

[Roman Caesar]

I have encountered similar situations where I have launched an attack force towards a poorly defended city, only to have the opponent reinforce the city instantly with more troops. In order to improve my chances of success, I always consider the following depending on the circumstances:
(1) Sign an open borders agreement in order to locate nearby troops that could be quickly moved in to his city and wait until they are too far away before launching the attack. Also, sometimes another Civilization might have borders closer to the city you wish to attack, therefore you could potentially launch from a tile in their territory.
(2) If you have spies, you could potentially destroy a road leading to the city to slow down movement of other troops.
(3) If you have a city that is nearby, you can try and build improvements that could put cultural pressure on the borders, in order to get your attacking position closer to the city.
(4) Always assume they can reinforce 1 troop per turn, so make sure your launching force will outnumber them appropriately.
(5) Negotiate with an AI to delclare war on them causing troops to leave their cities.
(6) Always factor in the cultural defence bonus, city walls, hills defence, fortification bonus, promotions...etc...

Remember, the most important objective is to achieve success so never sacrifice your troops. It is much better to pillage his land, attack the odd troop that moves out of the city to gain experience, and wait for catapults than to expose yourself to a counter attack by sacrificing your troops.

There is no better feeling than seizing a city effectively without using seige units. Once you have done it, also consider razing the city if you cannot hold it or it is in the wrong spot. Perhaps have a settler ready to go.

 

[Artichoker]

I'm going to post the save files for both the weak assault and the strong assault, in case anyone wants to see them.

Anyway, the weak assault force has only 1 Swordsman, not 2 as stated before...

 

[Artichoker]

I'm going to post the save files for both the weak assault and the strong assault, in case anyone wants to see them.

Anyway, the weak assault force has only 1 Swordsman, not 2 as stated before...

Hoping this attachment works...

 

[Artichoker]

Hoping this attachment works...

Looks like it didn't work...I'll have to try again later.

 

[Artichoker]

Hoping this attachment works...

Trying again.........

 

[Artichoker]

Yeah I've gotten in the habit of bringing way more troops then I'll think I'll need. I suppose it's better to have em and not need em than to need em and not have em.

I hear you about having cats there to get the job done. They do make it much simpler to take a city once they come on the scene. I get impatatient and take out some cities very early (before cats) too.

They are such a powerful unit, especially since they do not require any resources. And the technology that enables them also enables Elephants, with the help of Ivory, making Construction a pivotal technology for military in its era. And if you're using a leader without any military traits, these units are even better in comparison to melee and archer units.

However, to move the timeline for war earlier will, at some point, require attacking without a catapult.

 

[control740]

One thing you can do before cats if you have alphabet is use a spy to cause a city revolt, which eliminates it's defense bonus for one turn, allowing you to wail away at the vulnerable units inside.